Torn between two methods

[beaslbob]

To both of you. What about ORGANIC buildups?

Wouldn't you end up with a soup of organic compounds after some time?

again water changes will delay but not prevent buildup.

any type of buildup.

The only solutions are a 100% water change or eliminate the buildup as it is happening.

 

[d2mini]

What happens is the aquarium ends up to a point where the amount of build up between changes is removed by the water change. So if you replace 1/10 the water the aquarium builds up to 10 times the change between water changes. 1/20 20 times, 1/5 5 times, 1/100 100 times and so on.

I'm sorry but can you re-word this? I have no idea what you are saying here.

 

[tsav87]

again water changes will delay but not prevent buildup.

any type of buildup.

The only solutions are a 100% water change or eliminate the buildup as it is happening.

So your solution is 100% polluted 100% of the time?

At least a 50% water change would eliminate 50% of the build up. Will it get back to 100% polluted? Yes, and another water change will be required. My numbers are only for simple math....

 

[beaslbob]

I'm sorry but can you re-word this? I have no idea what you are saying here.

LOL

I'm saying a 1/10 water changes build up to 10 times the change.

equation:

just before water change=build_up_between_change/fraction_changed+(plus whatever is in the replacement water)
in table form:

1/10 (10% change) 10 buildup (linear units like ppm) 0 in replacement water

before water change___after_water_change______buildup_____next water change
100 _________________90_________________10________100
1/20 (5%)
200_________________190________________10_________200
1/3 (33%)
33.333________________23.3333____________10_________33.333
1/4 (25%
40___________________30_______________10__________40


Again the key is that what changes is totally removed by the water change. So this is the way the aquarium winds up.

 

[beaslbob]

So your solution is 100% polluted 100% of the time?

At least a 50% water change would eliminate 50% of the build up. Will it get back to 100% polluted? Yes, and another water change will be required. My numbers are only for simple math....

The idea is the aquarium does not get "polluted" to begin with.

 

[tsav87]

The idea is the aquarium does not get "polluted" to begin with.

How is that possible? Scented candles, aerosols, you name it. Our tanks aren't in positive pressurized chambers. What about chemical warfare between corals? Got a test for that?

 

[d2mini]

LOL

I'm saying a 1/10 water changes build up to 10 times the change.

equation:

just before water change=build_up_between_change/fraction_changed+(plus whatever is in the replacement water)
in table form:

1/10 (10% change) 10 buildup (linear units like ppm) 0 in replacement water

before water change___after_water_change______buildup_____next water change
100 _________________90_________________10________100
1/20 (5%)
200_________________190________________10_________200
1/3 (33%)
33.333________________23.3333____________10_________33.333
1/4 (25%
40___________________30_______________10__________40


Again the key is that what changes is totally removed by the water change. So this is the way the aquarium winds up.

You don't show equations to an artist in an attempt to make things clearer. I'm now more confused than before, and I didn't think that was possible.

What is this build up you are talking about? Organics/Waste?
How do water changes create more build up?
Or do you mean build up of trace elements?

 

[ATI North America]

Thank you for chiming in! Your product is simpler to understand and follow.

What are you thoughts of the requirements of a refugium?

ATI does not require you do or don't have a refugium. I think if you need nutrient export its a fine way to take care of it. I still dose carbon and run Rowaphos, so I cannot grow cheato myself.

 

[ATI North America]

LOL

I'm saying a 1/10 water changes build up to 10 times the change.

.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think what he is trying to say is multiple 10% water changes is better than 1 large water change. IE 5x 10% water change will lower pollution more than a single 50% water change.

 

[rocknut]

As someone that had a really nice, simple and successful tank ten years ago, that had MH lights, live rock, skimmer, etc, and then has spent the last ten years doing Zeovit, Biopellets, and Carbon Dosing, and having some serious ups and downs, and mini-crashes, my vote is no "system". Water changes, good rock, good lights/flow, good skimmer, and tweak as needed. Obviously, MANY people are successful with Triton and AF, so in no way knocking any of them, but personally, I'm enjoying finally having some success again by sticking with the basics (hope I didn't just jinx myself ). Take this with a grain of salt, but maybe it's food for thought. Good luck with whatever you choose!

 

[rgaston]

I was looking at the way to start using ATI Essentials program. It states in point 1 that you are to combine 1 part product to 9 parts water. Is this saying that the product is concentrated and needs to be diluted 1 part product to 9 parts rodi water? I am very interested in there ATI Essentials program and knowing this information lets me get a real idea of cost to use it.

 

[jason2459]

As did Triton reps at MACNA.

Jack had a better argument with actual data.

I would be highly skeptical of any data from a company that sells a limewater supplement with magnesium and strontium in it.

 

[SlvrZ]

gonna have to look into this ATI system, I didnt even know it existed until now.

 

[rushbattle]

I would be highly skeptical of any data from a company that sells a limewater supplement with magnesium and strontium in it.

Right?! I guess there are enough people that are ignorant enough to exploit for revenue, but how hard is it to read the even just the summary of Dr. H-F articles? Aqueous systems with few ions are pretty simple compared to seawater.

 

[tsav87]

Right?! I guess there are enough people that are ignorant enough to exploit for revenue, but how hard is it to read the even just the summary of Dr. H-F articles? Aqueous systems with few ions are pretty simple compared to seawater.

For us "ignorant" people, do you have links to said papers?

 

[jason2459]

For us "ignorant" people, do you have links to said papers?

Papers from Brightwell? We have marketing claims. It's not their only product that stretches the truth or in the case of Kalk +2 impossible.

 

[tsav87]

Papers from Brightwell? We have marketing claims. It's not their only product that stretches the truth or in the case of Kalk +2 impossible.

was referring to rushbattle's post.

 

[jason2459]

was referring to rushbattle's post.

Some useful articles
What Your Grandmother Never
Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

Aquarium Chemistry: Magnesium And Strontium In Limewater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/12/chemistry

 

[tsav87]

So in the first article you just posted, it talks about Mg and Sr in the limewater..?

Am I missing your point?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Jack inherited a chemistry mess (IMO) when he took over Brightwell from his son-in-law, but at least he has fixed some of the obvious mistakes (e.g., getting the magnesium content of their magnesium additive wrong by a factor of 2).

Here's my comment on kalk+2 from another thread:

Unfortunately, it is a very poorly designed product that won't work. It has very little magnesium in it, but even that will precipitate out in limewater as magnesium hydroxide.

Really, this is a pitiful product. Not enough magnesium to be useful even if it worked, and it won't work.

It is a marketing gimmick.

I show in the article linked below that bulk supplied calcium oxide and hydroxide have that amount of magnesium or more already in it.

Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm