Torn between two methods
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ATI North America
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You are correct! The 3x1Liter Essentials makes 10L of each of the 3 solutions. All the recommended dosing information is based on these dilutions/concentrations.
Excellent! That's why I chimed in, to at least let you weigh all your options.
jason2459
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K
I think we are getting off topic and not being helpful at helping the OP decide how he wants to run his tank.
I think it's helpful that one should be skeptical of marketing and sales slicks.
beaslbob
2500 Club Member
nope.
consider if the magnitude of change is tied to the frequency. say 1% every day. 10% every ten days, 20%every 20 days, and so on. and that something is increasing at 1 per day and they is none in the replacement water.
In all those cases the tank will build up to 100 before any of the water change schedules. What will change is the amount after the water change. 1%/day will bo 100 to 99 then back up to 100. 10% every ten days. 100 then 90 then back up to 100. etc etc etc
So the tank parameters will be more constant with frequent small water changes but the amount just before the water change will still be the same amount.
Even if you were continuously replacing the water at a 1%/day rate, the tank would have a constant 100.
My point was simply that 1) water changes will reduce but not correct tank changes and 2) the most effective rate is to get the tank's rate of change to 0 or at least small enough our tanks can run for a few years.
beaslbob
2500 Club Member
either and any. makes no difference as long as the build up is linearYou don't show equations to an artist in an attempt to make things clearer. I'm now more confused than before, and I didn't think that was possible.
What is this build up you are talking about? Organics/Waste?
never said that. but it is possible water changes add stuff to the tank
Could be.
Lets try this pictorially (graphically)
consider a 10% water change with a build up of 10 between water changes and 0 in replacement water. Kinda like nitrates for instance.
top line is before water change, blue is after water change (middle line) bottom line is buildup between changes.
equation is replacement water+buildup/fraction of change or 0+10/(1/10)=100
and consider 10% water change, -10 (consumed) between water changes and 400 in replacement water. kinda like calcium
again gray line is before water change in this case the middle line, blue is after water change in this case the upper line, the orange line is the -10 between changes
using the super duper beaslbob equation 400 (replacement water)+(-10)(buildup)/(1/10 fraction of change)=400-100=300 just before any water changes.
Hopefully that's all clearer than mud.
These are done with an excel spreadsheet I can email to anyone. [email protected]. It would be better for you to do your own IMHO as that helps understanding what's happening.
rushbattle
Valuable Member
I mean, it took a few seconds to google search RHF and limewater...
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm
jason2459
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Another good read for the topic on hand now currently. Does show one big water change is more efficient then more smaller ones to some degree. I prefer a lot of very small water changes myself though. I do around 1% daily done automatically.
Water Changes in Reef Aquaria
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php
Water Changes in Reef Aquaria
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php
Greybeard
2500 Club Member
Love this conversation. The fact that there are so many different choices, so many different 'methods' that can ALL produce excellent results, is one of the many reasons why I _love_ this hobby. Just imagine, if reef aquaria were like keeping sea monkeys... buy the kit, dump the packet into the water, watch it grow. It was cool... when I was 4. Would any of us be interested if it were this easy?
Many, many thousands of reef aquariums have been successfully maintained with a method you may have heard of... the 'Berlin' method. I'd guess that _everyone_ here is still using some aspect of this method today. It still works
Triton, Aquaforest, AquaBox, Brightwell, Red Sea, Zeovit, vodka dosing, bio pellets, DSB, Shallow sand, bare bottom... (If I haven't mentioned your specific method, don't take it badly) ALL of these 'methods', and many, many more have been used successfully.You know what the one thing I find in common in EVERY SINGLE CASE of a successful reef tank? A conscientious reefkeeper. A hobbyist who enjoys what they're doing, and strives to keep these beautiful little slices of reef thriving. The rate of fallout from this hobby is enormous. Why? Because it's hard! It's a very demanding hobby. You don't want to spend the time, do the reading, make the effort... you're gonna have a tank full of green hair and dead animals in no time at all.
I too started a new tank recently. Got wet about 3 months ago. After extensive research, I'm going Triton. I also looked hard at Red Sea and Zeovit. Why Triton? Because the most successful tank I've ever run was one that used a large macro algae refugeum as the primary method of nutrient export. Their system makes sense to me. Will it be successful? Yup. Why? Because I've been keeping reefs since the mid 1980's, I know what I'm doing, and I won't tolerate anything less than a successful tank. If Triton doesn't work out for me... I'll make changes until I find something that does.
Enjoy the hobby! (otherwise, why on earth are you here?)
beaslbob
2500 Club Member
wisdom from a greybeard.
Love this conversation. The fact that there are so many different choices, so many different 'methods' that can ALL produce excellent results, is one of the many reasons why I _love_ this hobby. Just imagine, if reef aquaria were like keeping sea monkeys... buy the kit, dump the packet into the water, watch it grow. It was cool... when I was 4. Would any of us be interested if it were this easy?
Many, many thousands of reef aquariums have been successfully maintained with a method you may have heard of... the 'Berlin' method. I'd guess that _everyone_ here is still using some aspect of this method today. It still works
You know what the one thing I find in common in EVERY SINGLE CASE of a successful reef tank? A conscientious reefkeeper. A hobbyist who enjoys what they're doing, and strives to keep these beautiful little slices of reef thriving. The rate of fallout from this hobby is enormous. Why? Because it's hard! It's a very demanding hobby. You don't want to spend the time, do the reading, make the effort... you're gonna have a tank full of green hair and dead animals in no time at all.
I too started a new tank recently. Got wet about 3 months ago. After extensive research, I'm going Triton. I also looked hard at Red Sea and Zeovit. Why Triton? Because the most successful tank I've ever run was one that used a large macro algae refugeum as the primary method of nutrient export. Their system makes sense to me. Will it be successful? Yup. Why? Because I've been keeping reefs since the mid 1980's, I know what I'm doing, and I won't tolerate anything less than a successful tank. If Triton doesn't work out for me... I'll make changes until I find something that does.
Enjoy the hobby! (otherwise, why on earth are you here?)
IMHO it takes years to find that out.
I would consider the method that most closely reflects your personality, life style and goals.
Do you want a dog to show or sit in your lap and live a long time?
IMO. It shouldn't be a job. Unless you want one I guess.
To a beginner , I personally would reccomend a ford not a Lamborghini.
Do you want a dog to show or sit in your lap and live a long time?
IMO. It shouldn't be a job. Unless you want one I guess.
To a beginner , I personally would reccomend a ford not a Lamborghini.
rushbattle
Valuable Member
Seconded, the method means little to the outcome, it's just one path. An engaged and conscientious aquarist is a successful one. One must just be willing to do the work.
rushbattle
Valuable Member
The first sentence is exactly how I would describe choosing any system. It needs to most closely adhere to your specific goals and constraints. There is no best, at least yet, there are many ways to get many different outcomes. In physics they say "there is no free lunch."
Greybeard
2500 Club Member
Oldreefer44
Valuable Member
As a person with a business that kept me from constantly monitoring my tank I chose to start out using the Triton method because it would make it easier to maintain consistent water quality. No major issues but did not see the growth I was expecting with my mostly sps corals. Decided to go with Aquaforest which I found to be much more time consuming. Also as a retailer myself, I found it to be interesting that over time there were more and more products in their line that were a "must have" to maintain a great tank. Also got more and more expensive and at the same time I experienced major algae and other issues and still did not see the growth that I felt should result from a return on the investment that I was making. Finally switched to the Red Sea system, basically required very little time, algae and other issues disappeared, and started to see the growth I was looking for. Change 10% of my water every 2 weeks or so and I find that my parameters stay very consistent. Simple and effective1
Greybeard
2500 Club Member
I seriously investigated Red Sea, Triton, and Zeovit. Discarded Zeovit because (A) initial expense was high, and (B) many long term KZ tanks showed pale, pastel colored corals. Down to Red Sea and Triton. I used the Red Sea 'Reef Mature' kit(s) to start getting the bio filter established, while still deciding. I was _very_ happy with the reef mature kit performance... but no water changes is a real draw for me... decisions... decisions... Finally picked Triton, but if it doesn't work out very well for me, I may well move back to Red Sea. Ask me again in a year
To chime in a bit here as someone who currently uses a modified Aquaforest balling method and is considering Triton: go with what will fit the time and commitment you can make to your tank. Each method has core principles and a set of guidelines and all tanks are different so be prepared to make minor changes to the routine no matter what. No method is a replacement for good husbandry, disciplined testing, and observation and each method has great show tanks displaying great results. A selling point to Triton beyond the water change principle is how concentrated their elements are compared to other options on the market. Right now in a 40breeder I am dosing 86ml of Aquaforest Component 1-2-3 per day, which with my dosing containers means every 2 weeks I am making a new batch whereas the Core7 bottles would last me a heck of a lot longer. I just upgraded to a 100g and the concentration of Triton is the main selling point to me, not so much the water change bit and the lab testing, but they sure don't hurt .
and each method has great show tanks displaying great results. A selling point to Triton beyond the water change principle is how concentrated their elements are compared to other options on the market. Right now in a 40breeder I am dosing 86ml of Aquaforest Component 1-2-3 per day, which with my dosing containers means every 2 weeks I am making a new batch whereas the Core7 bottles would last me a heck of a lot longer. I just upgraded to a 100g and the concentration of Triton is the main selling point to me, not so much the water change bit and the lab testing, but they sure don't hurt .
BigAsh
Active Member
ICP testing is a great innovation for the hobby. I've been using Aquaforest 1-2-3 and recently did a Triton ICP test. The parameters came back pretty good except K was a bit low. I'm bumping that up with AF K supplement. I need to compare Triton Core 7 to AF in terms of concentration/monthly cost. If I use the four Triton Core 7 bottles as dosing containers (like I do with the three 5 liter AF 1-2-3 jugs) I will need another dosing pump so I can continue automatic dosing of AcroPower.
