Trace and amino supplementation between water changes?

[TonyB]

I have been maintaining a ULNS (ultra low nutrient system) for some time now and perform water changes rather infrequently. I'm sure that the trace elements are being depleted and want to know if I would see any benefit from dosing them in between water changes. I don't see growth rates in my system that are close to what other club members have achieved. Also wondering the same thing about amino acids. I will post my water parameters below for good measure.

What are the recommended brands and dosing regimens?

SG 1.024
Ca 410
Alk 9-11 dKH
pH 8.0
ORP 390
NO3 .4 (seachem low range kit verified with awt.com quarterly)
PO4 .01-.03 (Hannah low range meter verified with awt.com)

 

[ReefGeezer]

I really think it helps color to dose trace elements. I dose Potassium, magnesium, strontium, iodine and iron between water changes. I test occassonally for potassium and magnesium. I just use the manf. directions for the others.

Corals need some nitrates. In ULN systems, there aren't any. Amino acids provide the nitrates when they are broken down. If your nitrates are detectable, you probably don't need the amino acids for nitrate replacement.

It might be better to feed the fish more and add amino acids to their food. This will make a higher protein "fish poop soup" and the corals will benifit.

 

[Joezreef]

so is there lots of nitrates in amino acids? so if you have high nitrates don't dose?

 

[ReefGeezer]

I'm not sure of the process, but amino acids can replace the nitrates needed by some corals. When carbon dosing for SPS tanks nitrates and other nutrients are reduced to 0. In these systems, corals can become nitrate limited. Many times, that's why you see pale or pastel colored SPS corals in a carbon dosed tank with few fish. Amono Acids help solve this problem. IMO, if you have detectable nitrates the corals are not nitrate limited.

In a softie tank amino acids will make zoas, shrooms, and soft corals sit up and take notice. I'd still soak the fish food and let the aminos get to the corals indirectly. It will raise nitrates if you over do it, but at least aminos don't contribute to phosphates too much.

 

[Ike]

There's no need to supplement trace elements or amino acids between water changes... I'm not fully sure what is meant by corals 'sitting up and taking notice', but there are numerous things that can cause deeding response in corals and make them inflate and deflate, that doesn't mean it's something beneficial or that they need. Corals can synthesize their own amino acids and there's no scientific evidence to suggest that their addition as a supplement is beneficial, and it's certainly not needed.

 

[eggie]

Are you using any low nutrient system Like Brightwell or Zeovit ?
Whats your type of lighting ?
How do you maintain the basic 3 ? (Calcium, Alkalinty, Magnesium)

 

[TonyB]

Are you using any low nutrient system Like Brightwell or Zeovit ?
Whats your type of lighting ?
How do you maintain the basic 3 ? (Calcium, Alkalinty, Magnesium)

The system is a 120, 30b frag tank and a 35g custom sump. Fish load is pretty heavy with somewhere around 20 fish. They are all wrasses, a pair of clowns, two gobies and an Achilles tang.

No Zeo or Brightwell. I attribute my undetectable nutrients to ozone, efficient skimmer and proper feeding of the fish.

Lighting is 2x250w Radiums on BlueWave ballasts.

The big 3 are maintained by a Geo 624 Ca reactor with ARM coarse media. I use a bit of dolomite in there, too, for magnesium. I also run 25% of my top-off water through a Kalk stirrer to maintain pH.


I've adopted a very lax schedule of water changes, once every 6 weeks. The only thing I dose is Iodine. The color is great and everything is healthy. My clams are growing like mad and the polyp extention on my SPS is phenomenal. It could be all in my head since I stare at the tank on a daily basis but I don't feel like I'm getting very good growth. SPS are growing, but not as fast as I see in other club members' tanks that have similar lighting.

I'd like to try out dosing some supplements to help with growth as I'm sure something is being depleted, but if the consensus is that these products are snake oil then I'll pass.

 

[roshi719]

so is there lots of nitrates in amino acids? so if you have high nitrates don't dose?

Amino acids are the building blocks of protein, by definition they have an amine group in their structure which consists of an N H3 group hanging off the molecule. When this gets nocked off it is instantly nitrate. Essentially all nitrate in our tank comes from the breakdown of amino acids, either by decomposition in uneaten portions or through metabolism in the food and supplements that gets consumed.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Yep. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Carbon dosing or ozone. Two ways to reduce nutrients. Lots of fish or adding amino acids. Two ways of keeping low nutrient levels from limiting coral's growth and color.

 

[Ike]

The system is a 120, 30b frag tank and a 35g custom sump. Fish load is pretty heavy with somewhere around 20 fish. They are all wrasses, a pair of clowns, two gobies and an Achilles tang.

No Zeo or Brightwell. I attribute my undetectable nutrients to ozone, efficient skimmer and proper feeding of the fish.

Lighting is 2x250w Radiums on BlueWave ballasts.

The big 3 are maintained by a Geo 624 Ca reactor with ARM coarse media. I use a bit of dolomite in there, too, for magnesium. I also run 25% of my top-off water through a Kalk stirrer to maintain pH.


I've adopted a very lax schedule of water changes, once every 6 weeks. The only thing I dose is Iodine. The color is great and everything is healthy. My clams are growing like mad and the polyp extention on my SPS is phenomenal. It could be all in my head since I stare at the tank on a daily basis but I don't feel like I'm getting very good growth. SPS are growing, but not as fast as I see in other club members' tanks that have similar lighting.

I'd like to try out dosing some supplements to help with growth as I'm sure something is being depleted, but if the consensus is that these products are snake oil then I'll pass.

Radiums are nice bulbs, but more for color than growth IMO. The ozone may also be hurting your growth slighty by eliminating potential food for the corals. Rather than messing with bottles with who knows what in them try feeding your corals more heavily over the next few months. Feed your corals and they'll synthesize their own amino acids...

 

[eggie]

What are your parameters ?
Alk Mag and calcium

 

[TonyB]

Alk 9-11 dKH
Ca 410
Mg 1400

 

[CoralBandit]

Amino acids are the building blocks of protein, by definition they have an amine group in their structure which consists of an N H3 group hanging off the molecule. When this gets nocked off it is instantly nitrate. Essentially all nitrate in our tank comes from the breakdown of amino acids, either by decomposition in uneaten portions or through metabolism in the food and supplements that gets consumed.

When it gets knocked off it is an ammonium ion +1 (NH4+)right??? not a nitrate.... then you now the story --> NO2 --> NO3 ---> N2

BUMP - The AA WILL help inadvertently by supplying more food! Your corals wont grow fast because you run an ultra low nutrient system. Corals in nature are in a super rich nutrient environment. I wouldnt reccommend just throwing in AA I would add to food and then feed more on top of that. The main reason people can maintain a ULNS with a reef is an illusion accomplished by a ridiculous skimmer and also by dosing Vodka or other carbon sources (This is important because the bacteria that oxidize the waste products need about a 10:1 ratio of carbon/nitrogen in order to oxidize it to the next step). So your corals wont grow if you dont have food and you cant get rid of the food efficiently unless you skimm the hell out of it and add an alternative carbon source.

As for the trace it depends on your load of corals and how often you do a water change. I would dose minimally starting off and keep it consistent with your water X schedule ODing on Trace is probably a bad situation. Brightwell has treated me right I have not used any other forms of trace.

 

[ReefGeezer]

When it gets knocked off it is an ammonium ion +1 (NH4+)right??? not a nitrate.... then you now the story --> NO2 --> NO3 ---> N2

BUMP - The AA WILL help inadvertently by supplying more food! Your corals wont grow fast because you run an ultra low nutrient system. Corals in nature are in a super rich nutrient environment. I wouldnt reccommend just throwing in AA I would add to food and then feed more on top of that. The main reason people can maintain a ULNS with a reef is an illusion accomplished by a ridiculous skimmer and also by dosing Vodka or other carbon sources (This is important because the bacteria that oxidize the waste products need about a 10:1 ratio of carbon/nitrogen in order to oxidize it to the next step). So your corals wont grow if you dont have food and you cant get rid of the food efficiently unless you skimm the hell out of it and add an alternative carbon source.

As for the trace it depends on your load of corals and how often you do a water change. I would dose minimally starting off and keep it consistent with your water X schedule ODing on Trace is probably a bad situation. Brightwell has treated me right I have not used any other forms of trace.

Great Info, Thanks.

 

[TonyB]

It's not that my corals are not growing at all. It just seems that they are growing slower than I've seen in other ULN systems. The only difference I can think of is that those other systems are using Zeo, Brightwell or Prodibio and are adding selectively adding particular elements such as potassium, trace and aminos and I thought I could improve my growth rates by doing the same. It seems that there are mixed opinions.

 

[Ike]

What are you feeding your corals?

 

[TonyB]

Nothing directly. I guess they're living off of fish waste.

My fish list;
Achilles tang
Leopard wrasse
Purple velvet fairy wrasse, male
laboutei wrasse, female
Pink margine wrasse, male
Yellow wrasse, male
whipfin wrasse, male
McCoskers wrasse, male
Solarensis wrasse, female
Mystery wrasse
Masudas hog fish
mandarin dragonette
Ocellaris pair
randalls goby
large pink spot goby

In the frag tank;
Tomini tang
mystery wrasse
McCoskers wrasse
two spot goby
tailspot goby

 

[Ike]

If you want better growth why not feed them a quality food that you know what's in it... That way they get amino acids, food, and growth, and you don't get suckered in by a bunch of nonsensical claims on a bottle of expensive water with a smidge of amino acids or trace elements that may or may not be beneficial but certainly aren't needed.

 

[TonyB]

What's a good food?

 

[subielover]

You can either make a homemade food, or go with a pre-made, such as Rod's food.