TRACE ELEMENTS

Luno · Mar 3, 2018

So if your familiar with my posts I've been pretty interested in trace elements lately.

Once you've got a successful reef you start nitpicking at little things like,
- can my coral color be better?
- can this parameter be closer to perfect
- can I do anything better?

Trace elements have come to mind lately and I have started dosing chasing some extra coral color. Now I the basics of never dose what you can't test for, however I really don't want to have to test for every trace element. I'm keen on getting triton tests say quarter yearly to make sure everything is on track I've been dosing the Red Sea coral colors and been doing so according to calcium consumption which is recommended.

So my questions are,
- do you dose trace elements and why?
- do you test for the trace elements?
- have you had a bad experience or a positive experience dosing trace elements?
- do you think dosing trace elements is an eventuality of a successful reef system?

Crabs McJones · Mar 3, 2018

Luno said:
So if your familiar with my posts I've been pretty interested in trace elements lately.

Once you've got a successful reef you start nitpicking at little things like,
- can my coral color be better?
- can this parameter be closer to perfect
- can I do anything better?

Trace elements have come to mind lately and I have started dosing chasing some extra coral color. Now I the basics of never dose what you can't test for, however I really don't want to have to test for every trace element. I'm keen on getting triton tests say quarter yearly to make sure everything is on track I've been dosing the Red Sea coral colors and been doing so according to calcium consumption which is recommended.

So my questions are,
- do you dose trace elements and why?
- do you test for the trace elements?
- have you had a bad experience or a positive experience dosing trace elements?
- do you think dosing trace elements is an eventuality of a successful reef system?

I do dose trace elements. Usually once a week.
I have not had a bad experience in doing so.
I use Kent Marine Essential Elements
I do believe that dosing trace elements is a good thing for your system. Your salt mix may already contain it but if it's getting used up quickly by a heavily stocked system, it will need to be replenished with other than regular water changes

madweazl · Mar 3, 2018

Q: Do you dose trace elements and why?
A: No but I perform weekly water changes of 13%

Q: Do you test for the trace elements?
A: No

Q: Have you had a bad experience or a positive experience dosing trace elements?
A: N/A

Q: Do you think dosing trace elements is an eventuality of a successful reef system?
A: I believe them to be essential, I do not believe it necessary to dose.

While I believe they look good, I'm not sure what they looked like in the wild so who knows if they're colored appropriately and display the same characteristics (e.g. growth pattern, growth rate, polyp extension, etc.). If you ask me if I think my SPS could look better, I'd say probably. Beyond water changes and the dosing of two part, I don't believe anything else to be necessary at this point.

bif24701 · Mar 3, 2018

I was doing large weekly water changes for this reason but my nutrients where always chronically low. To make up for lost elements I wanted to try Balling method so that I could continue to use my 5g buckets of BRS bulk 2part with Kalk and I like the idea of adding elements at the rate of 2part consumption. This makes it stable, simple, continue-us, and automatically added with 2part. Found AquaForest ComponentsStrong in my LFS so decide I’ll try. Instructions say to mix with the AF line of two part which is 1/2 as strong as the BRS after mixed with RODI. So I added 10ml rather than 5ml per liter.

Results are pending, only been a week. No ill effects.

I have added Lugols Iodine from Brightwell after my ICP and Triton results showed very low levels. The results where very good improvement in blue coloration of corals. No ill effects.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 3, 2018

Luno said:
Now I the basics of never dose what you can't test for, however I really don't want to have to test for every trace element.
?

Even with ICP you cannot detect low enough to see NSW levels of some trace elements, so don't agonize over that aspect.

anthonys51 · Mar 3, 2018

Think we know way to little about trace elements and how the corals react to them at different levels. I don’t like trying new things until it’s proven over time. I just stick to 10% water changes once a week. As far as people who say they have super low nutrients. I haven’t came across that problem yet. I’ll get back to on this one later

. I do have 14 tangs and 15 anthias in my 4 tank system so I assume that helps

bif24701 · Mar 3, 2018

anthonys51 said:
Think we know way to little about trace elements and how the corals react to them at different levels. I don’t like trying new things until it’s proven over time. I just stick to 10% water changes once a week. As far as people who say they have super low nutrients. I haven’t came across that problem yet. I’ll get back to on this one later . I do have 14 tangs and 15 anthias in my 4 tank system so I assume that helps

The Balling Method has been around since 1996, and in fact AquaForest, Triton, and other systems use the basic ideas this introduced over 20 years ago.

jsker · Mar 3, 2018

Yes, the elements are part of the balling method I use
No , I was at on point but what I am dosing is controlled by dosing
No , I have been very careful of the amount that I have dosed
Yes, When I was not dosing I had less color and growth.

jsker · Mar 3, 2018

Balling method link if one want to read up.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 3, 2018

bif24701 said:
The Balling Method has been around since 1996, and in fact AquaForest, Triton, and other systems use the basic ideas this introduced over 20 years ago.

Balling method, at least as currently implemented by Tropic Marin, is not a trace element supplement. It’s amazing how many people misunderstand it. It just allows you to dose calcium and alkalinity without that method itself causing additional lowering of trace elements. It is identical to dosing calcium and alk, and doing a tiny water change.

anthonys51 · Mar 3, 2018

bif24701 said:
The Balling Method has been around since 1996, and in fact AquaForest, Triton, and other systems use the basic ideas this introduced over 20 years ago.

Balling method incorporates mg alk and calcium as well some trace elements. It’s been around a long time yes. But that has more to do with dosing them. Not how they actually help our corals grow. Snake oil been around a long time too.
Also people keep going back to what natural sea levels are. But I keep my salt at 1.026. Natural seawater is 1.023. So what makes me think all other elements and trace elements need to be the same but salt doesn’t. I simple don’t know and won’t dose something I don’t know about. It’s proven to me you need to dose mg alk and calcium. That’s all I am simple trying to say

bif24701 · Mar 3, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Balling method, at least as currently implemented by Tropic Marin, is not a trace element supplement. It’s amazing how many people misunderstand it. It just allows you to dose calcium and alkalinity without that method itself causing additional lowering of trace elements. It is identical to dosing calcium and alk, and doing a tiny water change.

Really? According to a Practical Reef Keeping Magazine article Balling is traditional 2-part + NaCl free salt and Magnesium solution+ trace elements added to all three solutions.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 3, 2018

bif24701 said:
I have added Lugols Iodine from Brightwell after my ICP and Triton results showed very low levels. The results where very good improvement in blue coloration of corals. No ill effects.

While I’m not convinced that iodine has this effect generally, be careful in attributing that observation to the iodine levels. Lugols contains an unnatural form of iodine (I2) that is an oxidizer and hence it may change many things, including the form of many trace elements in the water, such as manganese and iron.

anthonys51 · Mar 3, 2018

I think too many people dose things and simple say I noticed better color and growth

I went on a diet for 3 days and felt like I lost so much weight. The fact was the scale only said 2 lbs. my opinion was I lost a lot. The fact was I didn’t

Not saying your wrong but did you do any controlled testing or just added something to your tank and noticed a little growth and said it’s fact. Hope you understand my point.

Greenstreet.1 · Mar 3, 2018

I add the balling trace to my CAL and ALK never had a problem with it used it for about 3yrs on my last setup using this time around also.
I don’t test for TE I do test potassium once a month.

bif24701 · Mar 3, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
While I’m not convinced that iodine has this effect generally, be careful in attributing that observation to the iodine levels. Lugols contains an unnatural form of iodine (I2) that is an oxidizer and hence it may change many things, including the form of many trace elements in the water, such as manganese and iron.

True, don’t want to lead folks to believe Iodine additions result in better blue colors.

Added Lugol’s, and for unknown reasons seemed to increase the appearance of vivid blue coloration. Also a slight temporary drop in ORP.

anthonys51 · Mar 3, 2018

Think this convo turned into a discussion about the balling method. lol. That wasn’t the topic. Balling method isn’t just trace elements and it covers some not all. The op asked about dosing trace elements. I will answer simple. It doesn’t seem to hurt or help. It’s really up to you if you want the added expense

bif24701 · Mar 3, 2018

I add AF components strong to my 2part. Have not observed any change in coloration, use has only been 7 days. Have seen a very minor increase in green turf algae in a few places. May or may not be due to the AF strong. May or may not be due to iron in the AF strong but I’ve not seen a trace of active growth of green algae in months.

I do personally believe there could be benefits to replacing trace elements as they are consumed. However until there is a method to test each of these elements easily and accurately while observing health and color of coral I guess we are left to trial and error with anecdotal observations. Considering how our hobby has evolved partly due to T&E with anecdotal observations because large scale studies are not economical this maybe our only hope.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 3, 2018

bif24701 said:
Really? According to a Practical Reef Keeping Magazine article Balling is traditional 2-part + NaCl free salt and Magnesium solution+ trace elements added to all three solutions.

Listing trace elements as an ingredient does not mean it boosts them. I do not doubt the possibility that someone may formulate a Balling method version that boost trace elements. but if you use the Balling Method as currently employed by Tropic Marin, it does not boost trace elements. I'll link the discussion with them in a bit (assuming I can find it).

But as an example of how this gets confusing, ESV B-ionic has trace elements, such as copper, in it. But it does not necessarily raise copper or any trace elements. It may lower them.

here's how:

The Many Methods For Supplementing Calcium And Alkalinity
http://www.reefedition.com/the-many-methods-for-supplementing-calcium-and-alkalinity/

One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 3, 2018

Here's the Balling continuation of that discussion in the previous post:

Here's Hans Werner's and Lou Ekus's exact comments:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...rin-balling-system.318541/page-2#post-3981248

"Our Tropic Marin Balling System is really completely balanced and results in calcium, bicarbonate (calcium carbonate + CO2 for coral growth) and complete Pro-Reef sea salt."

and

"The Balling Method published in 1994 just as the Tropic Marin Balling Method only adds calcium, carbonate and bicarbonate and in final outcome a little complete sea salt consisting of all the 79 elements mentioned. It does not contain additional magnesium or trace elements for growth of corals or coralline algae. Magnesium and trace elements consumption by different organisms is different, depending also from the calcium carbonate modification (high magnesium calcite or aragonite) formed by the organisms. A trace element recipe adding some of the essential trace elements in a certain ratio to calcium was first published in the following two years. Magnesium can be tested for and additional magnesium can be added separately."

and

"On the homepage you can find more details:
Concentration of solution:
Calcium chloride dihydrate (part A): 20.000 mg/l (ppm) Ca
Sodium carbonate/sodium bicarbonate (part B): 2800° dKH/l
Sodium chloride free sea salt (part C): 3350 mg/l Mg; 980 mg/l K"

That first statement is EXACTLY what I was demonstrating for a two part, and he clearly says Balling is not, by itself, a trace element supplement. It is the listed ingredients, plus a little bit of balanced salt missing the sodium and chloride.