Trident vs Alkatronic vs KH Director vs kh guardian

[road_runner]

Out of curiosity why wouldn’t you go this route if you didn’t have the controller?

Curious as well. I personally think one of khd strongest quality is that it can run stand alone...

 

[Brew12]

You mentioned that you have a ref solutiom of 7.5 that you can get 5 convective tests to verify the khd on?
If that's the case, performance looks very good.

Good enough for me. Of course, reading 7.5 means it could be anywhere between 7.4 to 7.6 each test. But, for me, I don't care about accuracy beyond that point. If people are actually concerned about the 0.015dkh accuracy, this wouldn't be a good fit.

Out of curiosity why wouldn’t you go this route if you didn’t have the controller?

I love everything about my GHL stuff other than the dosing heads failing too often. They have made some improvements lately so hopefully this will be less of an issue going forward.
I "might" have gone this route without the GHL controller but I would have spent more time researching the alternatives. I think the Trident has some pretty neat features but I want more clarification on their periodic maintenance.
Maybe a better way of saying it is that I am happy with the route I have gone, but I'm not at the point that I would recommend it above the other options for those without a Profilux setup.

 

[road_runner]

Good enough for me. Of course, reading 7.5 means it could be anywhere between 7.4 to 7.6 each test. But, for me, I don't care about accuracy beyond that point. If people are actually concerned about the 0.015dkh accuracy, this wouldn't be a good fit.


I love everything about my GHL stuff other than the dosing heads failing too often. They have made some improvements lately so hopefully this will be less of an issue going forward.
I "might" have gone this route without the GHL controller but I would have spent more time researching the alternatives. I think the Trident has some pretty neat features but I want more clarification on their periodic maintenance.
Maybe a better way of saying it is that I am happy with the route I have gone, but I'm not at the point that I would recommend it above the other options for those without a Profilux setup.

Thanks for sharing. I am bit confused now if you can help me out.

If your test on a 7.5 calibration solution showing 7.5. Why would you think it means its between 7.4 to 7.5? Are you referring to the fact that khd only report one digit fracture, so 7.5 might mean 7.5 or 7.59?

I agree with you 0.015 is not a tolerance anyone should care about not sure why it's even in your responce ha ha.

For the sake of clarity to readers of let's not confuse people.

The topic of accuracy and repeatability is not to say we are seeking lab grad error margin..
We are saying 2 simple things:

1- we better know the real accuracy and repeatability and not simply depend on data sheets. Because while it can be 0.08, it can also be 1 which can mean 9~7 on an actual 8kh system. Ismf the equipment is controlling dosers or reactor it better have an accuracy that meet reefer target. So knowing the real performance matter.

2- it is up to the reefer and depend on their system to decide what tolerance they can live with. As an example on my system I seek no more than 0.5 kh swing..I have lost millies when the swing is more. I keep my kh sharo between 7 and 7.5. Someone else might need tighter or looser range. We are not debating the proper ranges here.

Data is important because definition of good performance can vary between reefers depend on what they believe stable means.
For someone like me, stability might mean much tighter tolerance than what someone else. So, data is the only judge.

 

[Brew12]

I agree with you 0.015 is not a tolerance anyone should care about not sure why it's even in your responce ha ha.

That number just sticks in my head because at least one of the units was striving for that number. I think it stuck in my head because I thought it was ridiculous because most systems will swing more than that between dosing or adjustments on a calcium reactor.

1- we better know the real accuracy and repeatability and not simply depend on data sheets. Because while it can be 0.08, it can also be 1 which can mean 9~7 on an actual 8kh system. Ismf the equipment is controlling dosers or reactor it better have an accuracy that meet reefer target. So knowing the real performance matter.

I agree although I prefer the terms accuracy and precision. To me, precision is the more important number. A good example of this is that I don't really care if my system is at 8dkh or 9dkh. So, if I set my target at 8.5dkh and and the accuracy is 0.5dkh I know I will end up in that range.
Now precision I feel is much more important. If my alkalinity is 8.5dkh and the unit reads 8.7dkh one test and 8.3dkh the next I would not be happy. That would be a precision of +/-0.2dkh which I would not feel is acceptable for control. Now if my alkalinity is 8.3dkh but I consistantly measure the 8.5dkh I'm controlling to, that gives me a precision of +/-0.05dkh which I feel is fine. Precision is what will lead to stability.

2- it is up to the reefer and depend on their system to decide what tolerance they can live with. As an example on my system I seek no more than 0.5 kh swing..I have lost millies when the swing is more. I keep my kh sharo between 7 and 7.5. Someone else might need tighter or looser range. We are not debating the proper ranges here.

I try to keep my swing under 0.5dkh, and preferably under 0.2dkh. Also agree that it doesn't matter exactly where dkh is as long as it is stable. Lots of successful tanks between 6.0dkh and 11dkh.

 

[GoVols]

Late to find this thread... ;Hilarious

One month in:
The Alkatronic is really nice to pair up with a calcium reactor... ;Woot

Don't even test cal or mag, but every two weeks.

 

[road_runner]

YES!
Look like Xepta on track for Aug-sep launch..

From their FB
"we have a delay in the autoBalance, we have given a wash of image and this is the final result. If all goes well, the first AB units will be avaible in the month of August-September!"



Great time to be a reefer.
https://www.facebook.com/1889043614489912/posts/2464310096963258/

 

[mitch91175]

Out of curiosity why wouldn’t you go this route if you didn’t have the controller?

@leepink23 you will find that the the case with others as well. Some just have the need to want everything in one place. Personally I am used to switching application all the time so that doesn't bother me. I personally look for products that work rather than color coordinate what's under my tank.

 

[leepink23]

@leepink23 you will find that the the case with others as well. Some just have the need to want everything in one place. Personally I am used to switching application all the time so that doesn't bother me. I personally look for products that work rather than color coordinate what's under my tank.

Do you have to calibrate your Alkatronic monthly? I saw in a video it loses some accuracy if not.

 

[mitch91175]

YES!
Look like Xepta on track for Aug-sep launch..

From their FB
"we have a delay in the autoBalance, we have given a wash of image and this is the final result. If all goes well, the first AB units will be avaible in the month of August-September!"



Great time to be a reefer.
https://www.facebook.com/1889043614489912/posts/2464310096963258/

That looks sweet!!!!! Thought out design. So if the product works well (even with some minor hiccups in the beginning as long as they aren't measurement related, but maybe a few glitches that can easily be resolved) that is what I'll add next.

I am more interested in the highlighted below.

Ionic probe based I can see doing calcium/magnesium just because the cost will be less according to the prices that I recall being mentioned in a video. I think Carlos with CoralVue said something about the probes not need to be replaced frequently either.

Do not care about dKH testing, but since it'll be there might as well put it to use right

 

[mitch91175]

Just looked at their Facebook page. What is up with all the filtered comments and almost no chatter about the product? Didn't really see much at all. I like how Jonas Roman was really transparent with the development and responsiveness in his original thread about the Alkatronic.

 

[road_runner]

@leepink23 you will find that the the case with others as well. Some just have the need to want everything in one place. Personally I am used to switching application all the time so that doesn't bother me. I personally look for products that work rather than color coordinate what's under my tank.

+1 to that. I actually started intentionally not having every single equipment controlled by the same controller to reduce some risks.
Things like lights, power heads, return pumps I control via their native apps. I feel I get better pieace of mind..

 

[Matthias Gross]

Hi

sorry to interrupt here, but all this talk about the precision of measuring the alkalinity makes me a bit upset.
I state "only" 0.1 accuracy for our KH Director. Why? Because it is TRUE and HONEST!
In my opinion it is 100% nonsense to claim an accuracy of 2 digits after the decimal point.

Besides that this accuracy has absolutely no meaning in the real world (your tank) I highly doubt that any of these devices can measure with that precision. Maybe under lab conditions with super precise calibrations and controlled conditions.
And what means precision? The absolute value? Or the repeatability? Total different things.

We could easily also display 2 digits after decimal point, or 3. The internal resolution in the KH Director is not limited (double float variables), so we could display whatever we want.
But we don't do it - because it is meaningless and unserious.

Why do I say all that?
There are so many factors which will affect your results - and you have to add the inaccuracy of all of them (this is a mathematical thing). These are the factors:
- accuracy of pumps
- accuracy of probe
- how good was your calibration? at what temperature?
- what is the water temperature, environment temperature, air pressure etc., and this compared to the time you did calibrate?
- tolerance of reagent
- tube length

etc. etc.

-> I say it is really a complete nonsense to state an accuracy of < 0.1 or to base the purchase decision based on the relating claims.

And you don't need it. Your natural KH swing would be way higher. You have to see the tendency and react in an appropriate manner - this is what the KH Director does.

 

[Matthias Gross]

Addition to the control capabilities the KH Director has, there were also some statements which are not 100% accurate.

The KH Director has the MOST controlling options:
- simple switching on/off of an outlet - although I really don't recommend to switch permanently on/off your calcium reactor controller - but we have this mode since others have it also
- there is a better way to control a Calcium reactor - our "Calcium reactor mode": here the pH setpoint is varied and the relating outlet is switched accordingly
this approach makes much more sense than just switching on/of a Ca reactor controller
- Kalkwasser mode: same as before, just controlling the pH to the other direction
- Adaptive control mode for up to 5 dosing pumps (changes dosing volumes,increases or decreases in %)
- Add-On control mode for up to 5 dosing pumps (changes dosing volumes, increases or decreases in ml)

Additionaly there are user-definable threshholds and alarms for your safety.

Learn more in the KHD manual:
https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/downloads/kh-director-manual/

 

[mitch91175]

Hi

sorry to interrupt here, but all this talk about the precision of measuring the alkalinity makes me a bit upset.
I state "only" 0.1 accuracy for our KH Director. Why? Because it is TRUE and HONEST!
In my opinion it is 100% nonsense to claim an accuracy of 2 digits after the decimal point.

Besides that this accuracy has absolutely no meaning in the real world (your tank) I highly doubt that any of these devices can measure with that precision. Maybe under lab conditions with super precise calibrations and controlled conditions.
And what means precision? The absolute value? Or the repeatability? Total different things.

We could easily also display 2 digits after decimal point, or 3. The internal resolution in the KH Director is not limited (double float variables), so we could display whatever we want.
But we don't do it - because it is meaningless and unserious.

Why do I say all that?
There are so many factors which will affect your results - and you have to add the inaccuracy of all of them (this is a mathematical thing). These are the factors:
- accuracy of pumps
- accuracy of probe
- how good was your calibration? at what temperature?
- what is the water temperature, environment temperature, air pressure etc., and this compared to the time you did calibrate?
- tolerance of reagent
- tube length

etc. etc.

-> I say it is really a complete nonsense to state an accuracy of < 0.1 or to base the purchase decision based on the relating claims.

And you don't need it. Your natural KH swing would be way higher. You have to see the tendency and react in an appropriate manner - this is what the KH Director does.

@Matthias Gross well said. Only concern I have is that I do not get major drifts with my device; meaning that if it measures 8.0 dKH (even if +/- 0.?) that it is the same through the current mixed reagent batch. Yes for someone to sit here and complain about a device that isn't 100% accurate all the time or 100% precise all the time for the price point we are paying for these devices is ludicrous. For some too be soo precise it wouldn't be affordable for nearly any of us in the hobby. We just have to use the info we receive from our devices appropriately.

Now if a device test 1 minute and read say 8.5dKH and the next minute and test 9.5dKH without any new addition of, that is a device that shouldn't be trusted in your aquarium. Just need consistent measurements within a range that doesn't cause anything detrimental to occur in our systems so really being +/- 0.1 isn't the end of the world like mentioned as long as that +/- 0.1 doesn't end up being +/- 1.5, then +/- 2dKH, then +/- 2.5dKH, etc. over time.

 

[Matthias Gross]

measuring 8.0 with an accuracy of 0.1 would mean it could also be 7.9 or 8.1
And not a deviation of +/-1.5 ...
At least this is the case with the KHD, I can’t speak for the other vendors.

 

[mitch91175]

measuring 8.0 with an accuracy of 0.1 would mean it could also be 7.9 or 8.1
And not a deviation of +/-1.5 ...
At least this is the case with the KHD, I can’t speak for the other vendors.

Good to be straight up and honest as possible about your product. I was looking at a handheld ColePalmer multimeter and the probes for them and it’s not inexpensive in the slightest. Trying to say that I do not know if one can expect any hobby grade product to outperform any of those products. Therefore, we use what we have an learn the nuances of said item and work around them in our systems.

 

[road_runner]

Let's be clear here, we are not saying 0.1 or 0.2 accuracy is high or low...
We are saying we should know what the real precision of the test equipment..
If a test equipment have a variation of +-1 kh that's a serious issue...would you agree? If your actual kh is 8 you do not want to see 7 or 9 results..
This is important if we are dowing based on the reading of a test equipment.
That's why I depend on the static test which is testing a reference solution of a known kh for 5 consecutive times
Or even testing the system 5 consecutive times. Because we would not expect kh to change in a minute or 2. If the results came similar or withen reasonable tolerance that's good. But if results came with large variation then the test equipment is not trust worthy.

I am just trying to focuse the discussion and not to confuse the reader.

In my openion up to +-0.3 variation I will be ok with...

 

[Matthias Gross]

For checking our test equipment we offer a reference fluid with a nominal value of 7.5° dKH.
You can check the KH Director results, if you like to 10 in a row. Most of these measurements will show the same value, maybe a few vary about 0.1.

 

[mitch91175]

Let's be clear here, we are not saying 0.1 or 0.2 accuracy is high or low...
We are saying we should know what the real precision of the test equipment..
If a test equipment have a variation of +-1 kh that's a serious issue...would you agree? If your actual kh is 8 you do not want to see 7 or 9 results..
This is important if we are dowing based on the reading of a test equipment.
That's why I depend on the static test which is testing a reference solution of a known kh for 5 consecutive times
Or even testing the system 5 consecutive times. Because we would not expect kh to change in a minute or 2. If the results came similar or withen reasonable tolerance that's good. But if results came with large variation then the test equipment is not trust worthy.

I am just trying to focuse the discussion and not to confuse the reader.

In my openion up to +-0.3 variation I will be ok with...

Exactly why I use a CaRx and not dose. Don’t worry much about it increasing my dKH through the roof. What is funny does everyone notice that a lot of the conversation in the thread really surrounds dKH? I wonder why?

Rhetorical questions guys

 

[JimWelsh]

sorry to interrupt here, but all this talk about the precision of measuring the alkalinity makes me a bit upset.
I state "only" 0.1 accuracy for our KH Director. Why? Because it is TRUE and HONEST!
In my opinion it is 100% nonsense to claim an accuracy of 2 digits after the decimal point.

Just because you can't do it, that doesn't mean it can't be done. Trident's alkalinity assay has a precision (2 x RSD) of better than 0.5% of the measured value. We don't need to indulge in significant figure abuse in order to be able to honestly report alkalinity to two decimal places.

Sorry to hear you have so much difficulty with pump accuracy as an issue. Same for those probes you use. Trident entirely avoids that issue. Also sorry to hear if you have issues with QC on your reagent, or if you don't know how long your tubes are. I'm not sure what significant effect air pressure has on an alkalinity assay, or if you're just resorting to gratuitous FUD with that one.

I bet that if you COULD claim such precision, you would. Your rant reminds me of a story about a fox and some grapes.....