TTM and Meds

sunken3 · Dec 23, 2020

just looking for thoughts - i am planning to use the TTM and meds at the same time (starting with Cupramine). if i move fish every 36 hours, do i need 14 days with cupramine, or could i do less? maybe like 6 days of cupramine and then switch to Parizpro for 6 days..? im thinking - tank 1 - 36 hours cupramine, tank 2 - 36 hours cupramine, tank 3 - 36 hours parizpro, tank 4 - 36 hours parizpro... does that sound effective?

sunken3 · Dec 23, 2020

yes - i guess thats less than 6 days each...

sunken3 · Dec 25, 2020

thought there'd be more thoughts here...

polyppal · Dec 25, 2020

The TTM if done correctly is designed to 'outrun' the ich trophonts so I don't think you'd need copper.

The copper doesn't 'heal' a fish suffering a parasite outbreak as much as it is killing the free floating ich before it can reinfect a fish, or genetically damaging the next generation of ich.

IMO, I would think the transfers with copper would be quite stressful on a fish. I do a @Humblefish style quarantine in copper for 14 days, then transfer to a new clean tank for prazi. You don't have to wait a month in copper if they aren't staying in the same tank the entire time.

Jay Hemdal · Dec 25, 2020

Personally, I'm not a big fan of TTM. I think that moving fish that often in bare containers is problematic and the timing is prone to error. It is also a mostly theoretical process, and there are some diseases that it can't deal with. Neobenedenia and Gyrodactylus for example, will fly right through TTM.

While I would always quarantine my fish in a more traditional manner, I would be especially wary of TTM combined with chemotherapeutics - that is just more added stress.

My full quarantine is 30 days Coppersafe or Copper Power, 3x praziquantel treatments, a week apart, followed by 2 weeks (at least) of observation. If the fish are to go in with a lot of high value tankmates, I'll swap the 2 weeks observation for 35 days of hypo (to control Neo).

Jay

sunken3 · Dec 25, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
Personally, I'm not a big fan of TTM. I think that moving fish that often in bare containers is problematic and the timing is prone to error. It is also a mostly theoretical process, and there are some diseases that it can't deal with. Neobenedenia and Gyrodactylus for example, will fly right through TTM.

While I would always quarantine my fish in a more traditional manner, I would be especially wary of TTM combined with chemotherapeutics - that is just more added stress.

My full quarantine is 30 days Coppersafe or Copper Power, 3x praziquantel treatments, a week apart, followed by 2 weeks (at least) of observation. If the fish are to go in with a lot of high value tankmates, I'll swap the 2 weeks observation for 35 days of hypo (to control Neo).

Jay

thank you for the advice!

Hugh Mann · Dec 25, 2020

If TTM is your plan, I'd take a gander at the Humblefish sticky over in the Disease and Treatment section. But what Jay said is also a very good practice. TTM can be mucked up quite easily, and in regards to ich where it doesn't always show the signs, it can be spread to your display.

Cbones1979 · Jan 20, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
Personally, I'm not a big fan of TTM. I think that moving fish that often in bare containers is problematic and the timing is prone to error. It is also a mostly theoretical process, and there are some diseases that it can't deal with. Neobenedenia and Gyrodactylus for example, will fly right through TTM.

While I would always quarantine my fish in a more traditional manner, I would be especially wary of TTM combined with chemotherapeutics - that is just more added stress.

My full quarantine is 30 days Coppersafe or Copper Power, 3x praziquantel treatments, a week apart, followed by 2 weeks (at least) of observation. If the fish are to go in with a lot of high value tankmates, I'll swap the 2 weeks observation for 35 days of hypo (to control Neo).

Jay

Jay I have cupramine. Says 14 days and the most recent tidal garden video on WT also had 14 days for it. However Humble suggested using 30 days. Think I should just get copper safe if I’m wary of potency?

Jay Hemdal · Jan 20, 2021

Cbones1979 said:
Jay I have cupramine. Says 14 days and the most recent tidal garden video on WT also had 14 days for it. However Humble suggested using 30 days. Think I should just get copper safe if I’m wary of potency?

I like to run copper for 30 days, but I worry that Cupramine is a bit too "strong". I think Coppersafe, while not as effective for active diseases, is better for long term treatment. I just finished a coppersafe treatment on 30 barred flagtails that went 45 days. I've kept fish as long as six months in full coppersafe back when I managed a pet store.

Jay

Cbones1979 · Jan 20, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
I like to run copper for 30 days, but I worry that Cupramine is a bit too "strong". I think Coppersafe, while not as effective for active diseases, is better for long term treatment. I just finished a coppersafe treatment on 30 barred flagtails that went 45 days. I've kept fish as long as six months in full coppersafe back when I managed a pet store.

Jay

How about copper power?

Jay Hemdal · Jan 20, 2021

Cbones1979 said:
How about copper power?

I'm a lot less familiar with that, and I tend to use what I have a good track record with. I would say copper power is a bit stronger than coppersafe, but fewer side effects than cupramine...

Jay

Cbones1979 · Jan 20, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
I'm a lot less familiar with that, and I tend to use what I have a good track record with. I would say copper power is a bit stronger than coppersafe, but fewer side effects than cupramine...

Jay

Copper safe by fritz

Jay Hemdal · Jan 20, 2021

Cbones1979 said:
Copper safe by fritz

Yes - it used to be made by Mardel, then Fritz took it over.

Jay

Argos02 · Jan 20, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
My full quarantine is 30 days Coppersafe or Copper Power, 3x praziquantel treatments, a week apart, followed by 2 weeks (at least) of observation. If the fish are to go in with a lot of high value tankmates, I'll swap the 2 weeks observation for 35 days of hypo (to control Neo).

Hello @Jay Hemdal ,

Due to copper treatments being relatively harsh, what is your expected fish loss percentage due to the relative harshness of the solution? I know it might be very different in reference to what fish is being treated, but maybe just some of the more common fish like tangs, dwarf angels, gammas/damsels/chromis/dottyback etc. And would you anticipate the more beginner aquarist to achieve the same rates or would expected survival rates be lower?

Jay Hemdal · Jan 20, 2021

Argos02 said:
Hello Jay,

Due to copper treatments being relatively harsh, what is your expected fish loss percentage due to the relative harshness of the solution? I know it might be very different in reference to what fish is being treated, but maybe just some of the more common fish like tangs, dwarf angels, gammas/damsels/chromis/dottyback etc. And would you anticipate the more beginner aquarist to achieve the same rates or would expected survival rates be lower?

With coppersafe, I would expect my loses to be zero from copper toxicity. Back when I used to run copper+citric acid, I'd guess perhaps 10% of the fish would have reactions, usually Centropyge angels or anthias.

Now - if you are talking quarantine losses for newly imported marine fish from ALL causes, that runs much higher. I bet green chromis losses are running above 60% now. I tracked some fish through the supply chain in various studies over the years and I have seen 45 days mortality rates for Indo- Pacific fish that ran from 9% to 45%

Jay

Argos02 · Jan 20, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
With coppersafe, I would expect my loses to be zero from copper toxicity. Back when I used to run copper+citric acid, I'd guess perhaps 10% of the fish would have reactions, usually Centropyge angels or anthias.

Jay

Oh wow. I have been told many fish perish from copper treatment in QT because it is harsh on the fish. Why wouldn't one take the time and dose copper? *I don't have a tank but researching for my first saltwater tank*

It seems there is a discussion (both sides with valid points) that say you shouldn't treat fish (prophylactic QT) unless they are sick, and more fish die from QT than actual disease. (or I guess fish die from just a QT that are entirely healthy) But if you are saying you experience zero fish death from copper treatment, this doesn't seem as though the previous statement is true.

Or am I confusing copper treatment with another QT treatment that causes some fish loss (that are otherwise healthy)? Maybe metronidazole (ie API General Cure)

Your thoughts?

sunken3 · Jan 20, 2021

i think QT'ing is pretty safe when done properly. I agree with Jay, if you are QT'ing fish recently purchased, the death rate probably isn't caused by the copper but other issues (of course QT stress itself could be a part of that).. usually its a little bare tank.... not all that inviting. I honestly think ammonia could be the biggest risk, but is manageable if diligent.

i saw ammonia rising to detectable levels around 36-40 hours in my 10 gallon QT tanks.