Two part dosing vs reactors

Acronuts · Jun 10, 2009

Hey all I am thinking of whether to switch my current regime of dosing two part solutions.
I have heard a lot about ca reactors but lots of confusing info. As well a lot of different equipment. I don't want to go overboard but in this hobby it is very easy to do so.
Therefore I decided to ask you guys.
What is your current method?
Did you choose this method from the start?
If you switched, why?
Any pics of tanks or individual corals with before or after results would be great to see guys.
Thank you all in advance!
Juan

bkv1997 · Jun 10, 2009

I originally used two part.
Then Kalk
Then a CA reactor.

After some time on the CA reactor alone I noticed my levels got out of balance so I dosed some two part for a couple days and noticed increased growth even thought i was also using a CA reactor.

After all that today I use the CA reactor and drip kalk also to keep the PH in range and to relieve any excess CO2. Two times a week I also dose 2 part. Doing this i personally get the best growth and color. I've never been able to explain it if your parameters test out the same, but the results are real.

Just my 2 cents.
Brandon

naldopr · Jun 10, 2009

Juan I see many people that had reactor for life and now they do 2 part and have amazing results, better example sunnyx. I had reactor now I do 2 part will see when the tank gets older and get full again.
WWC had reactor now they just do kalkwasser as top off. and you know how their tank is.
the growth on their tank is ridiculous ^_^
I think what ever you decide to use will do the job it's all about preference.

Mr.Firemouth · Jun 10, 2009

It is not really about personal preference as it is about "Calcium Demand" from the bio load.
When you first start a reef tank, you have a low demand for calcium "Uptake" or "Demand".
This is why tanks with small frags, little corallines, and are pretty new use a 2-part with great success.
Once the demand increases due to a heavy population of corals and an increase in corallines the 2-part starts to gets used much faster. Also, phosphates and bio-available acids start to react and percipitate some calcium, so the demand increases. At this point, a CA reactor is advisable and a smart purchase.

The trick is dialing in the reactor with the proper media and flow/CO2.
The reactor may be dosing an Alk of 10 but a calcium level of 380 ppm and you want more. Well, at this point you need to increase the CO2 by lowering the pH controller's target number from say 6.4 to 6.0. This effluent also needs to run through a secondary reactor to diffuse the CO2(which is acidic) and to buffer the pH back up to 8.

Many people run single reactors and this is OK, but there are better results running through a second reactor. The media of the secondary reactor should be Calcite chips which are high in strontium and Magnesium. This will help balance out those 2 levels also.

If, after you have done this to your system and you still need to add 2 part or drip Kalk, then your system is exceeding the demand of the reactor you have provided and you need to increase the reactors size or add a second reactor.

The use of phosphate removal resins or a Bacteria system like Zeo-vit or si,ilar system, is needed to reduce nutrient levels that prohibit good growth and color. Phosphates are needed in trace levels, not .2-2ppm levels. Phosphates stop the uptake of calcium through a process known as Calcium inhibition.

There are additional variables to successful growth of corals outside of maintaining proper calcium/Alk levels. These are in no specific order...
Available protien through zooplankton
Available light measured in Par and Kelvins
Available carbon sources
Available water currents to wash away waste products and bring new sources of food
Consistent water parameters including stable salinity, Alkalinity, Calcium levels, and an overall nutrient deplete system(meaning very low nitrates/phosphates

When all of these parameters are met within the "optimal" range calcification and photosynthesis will work harmoniously to provide the fastest growth rates available.

Here is a nice article on Photosynthesis and calcification....
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/205/14/2107

Basically remember that there is more to the overall success than just the addition of a reactor. Stability is key more than anything. For example, you could have a tank that has 20ppm nitrates or higher look amazing because it always at that level and the other parameters listed above are stable. Therefore it is safe to assume that corals adapt to their environment if that environment is consistent, and once they have acclimated to this environment they begin to thrive! However, if the environment is always changing in chemistry then the corals will grow much slower and be much weaker.

Hope this helps.

naldopr · Jun 10, 2009

good info thanks Mr.Firemouth

twinspots_goby · Jun 10, 2009

Thanks from me too.

Acronuts · Jun 11, 2009

STABILTY! Makes perfect sense to my logical thinking mind.
For me dosing 2 part solution manually 5x a week. Dosing kalk 1x per week and water changes twice a month has made my tank experience growth. This growth wouldn't be there if the animals were not happy with what I have been providing them.

Still I want the best that I can for my wonderful inhabitants. Providing stable conditions for them is where it needs me to be.
Do you guys know who sells systems setups for both dosing automatically and ca reactors.

Thanks firemouth and all!

702reefer · Jun 11, 2009

for my 50g sps tank, ive been dosing for about 6 months, currently im at 75ml a day. now that i am upgrading to a 180g, im curious to see how dosing is going to do. ive seen and heard lots of reactor stories, most wasnt good. granted it is user error, i would hate to take the chance.

Sikryd · Jun 11, 2009

I just shipped out the reactor I had since I feel more comfortable doing 2 part.
Later when the tank is growing out or grown out I am SURE I will have to pick another one up. In the meantime I will read up and feel 100% comfortable adding one and the ALL of the chemistry behind it.
I am more into a stable tank as well and didn't want to add one until I was sure I needed one and had zero questions on the where, what, why and how of it.
Right now I do it manually. I should be hooking up my Aquamedic 2-pump doser here in the next few days to take over the duties.
My .02

stunreefer · Jun 11, 2009

Here's a great little write-up Eric did on glassboxdesign on "Ca Rx vs. 2-Part": http://glassbox-design.com/2009/two...ctors-both-are-here-to-stay-which-is-for-you/

Mr.Firemouth said:
It is not really about personal preference as it is about "Calcium Demand" from the bio load.
When you first start a reef tank, you have a low demand for calcium "Uptake" or "Demand".
This is why tanks with small frags, little corallines, and are pretty new use a 2-part with great success.

Agree to disagree... although you're right on with "it is about Calcium Demand from the bio load," personal preferance plays a HUGE role (#1 IMO) as I've ran fully stocked to the brim SPS tanks with 2-Part, Ca Rx, Kalk drip (old school means) and neither (strictly relied on large water changes)... a million ways to skin a cat

Mr.Firemouth said:
The use of phosphate removal resins or a Bacteria system like Zeo-vit or si,ilar system, is needed to reduce nutrient levels that prohibit good growth and color.

If PO4 levels continue to climb, then yes GFO, bacterial driven system or refugium should be implemented, but they do not HAVE to be... unless necessary.

Great info on Ca Rx Mr. Firemouth!

fsu1dolfan · Jun 11, 2009

I have been using Reef Code A&B from Brightwell....seems to keep things pretty sable...anyone else use this??

Mr.Firemouth · Jun 11, 2009

Thanks guys,
I totally agree about different methods working.
The thing is though, for any method to really work you have to first understand it. Understand what is happening and how, so you use the technique properly.
With that said, most people crash a system with CA Reactors and 2-part systems by not making the right choices, aka User Error.

With Ca reactors, pH probes can give a false reading or malfunction and trick the controller into dumping too much CO2, or the solenoid could malfunction. These are just 2 things that could go wrong. Cheap media is another problem leaching impurities into a system. What happens more than not is people become complacent with the automated Ca Reactor and stop testing and monitoring and then they have big problems develop that they could of fixed.

The same is true with 2-part solutions.
1. who makes them? You with the RHF method like I do, or store bought?
2. costs. Store bought additives will add up quickly on larger systems over 300g. DIY will save money but sacrifice consistency in batches.
3. Consistency in batches. We trust that the next bottle we buy was the same strength as the last one. But do we really know and does it matter?
4. Misunderstanding the directions and applications. Many bottles say add equal parts, however if Ca is at 500ppm and Alk is at 7 DKH do we reallly need to add any CA? You see the point in how easy not understanding can throw someone off and crash a system.
5. Kalk- affects pH and Alkalinity. many systems run fine with just a Kalk drip, but some systems experience a large drop in Alk with only a Kalk drip. Why? Also many people only check pH and CA test and forget to test for Alk or do not understand the relationships between Alk and CA and how they meet an equilibrium.

To obtain stability, we must understand how we set up our system because each one is different and behaves differently than the next. There is always similarities, but each is different. By testing Ca, Alk, Mg, pH, Nitrate, Phosphate, Salinity, we can begin to record these numbers weekly and find out if we are consistent or bouncing all over the place. First you need the data, then to interpret the data, and then to apply a corrective action. Once you know where the weaknesses in your individual system lie, whether they be in equipment used or design, correcting them will lead you to a stable tank and increase your over all success with growth and color.

One of the biggest problems in our hobby is the "plug-N-play" approach to reefkeeping. We know something works so we use it, get fair results, but don't really know how it is working or why. No matter which system you choose to use, ask questions about it, and learn as much as you can about how and why it works on your system.

naldopr · Jun 11, 2009

Mr.Firemouth well said

Acronuts · Jun 12, 2009

You are right firemouth. Had it not been for testing I would not know that my alk was high. Therefore dosing manually the A/B equally would not work. Over the week I have tested alk and seen that what I am doing w/ dosing is exactly on the right path. (exactly 1/2 of the measurement of part a) The other factor is that my ca is never at 500 or above. It is always at around 440 to 460. I now know that I can tweak the ca and add more. I do like this ability.
Adding kalk IMO for my tank once a week seems to benefit my animals they show signs of liking it. What do they like? IMO they like the fact that the ph is now higher and stays constant during the night hours as well. Couple that with a better alk level then it gives my system for two to three days a balance.
Now my goal is get that balance on a daily basis.
This brings me back to one method vs the other. What are the costs over time? What are the benefits to my animals over time?
No matter what it is definitely understanding what we do, how we do it and why we are doing it.

gilmour01 · Jun 12, 2009

i dosed b-ionic in my 75g reef for yrs, but decided to add a kalk reactor when i added my auto-top off. i'm so glad i did. it makes life much easier and keeps my Ca and Alk rock solid. i do on occasion have to add a touch of buffer to keep the alk at 8. as my sps frags grow out i will probably add a Ca reactor down the road. hope that helped

schminksbro · Jun 12, 2009

I like the convenience and stability of a calcium reactor. I could see where 2-part would work when your tank is young but once you have a serious demand it would seem to me that hand dosing would be impossible. You would then have to go to dosing pumps. To me it seems like 2-part would become a very expensive hassle on a tank with strong demand. I am curious what you do when consumption rate exceeds your evaporation rate or if this is possible. Also I have read that the calcium part contains salt. How do you keep your salinity stable?