Unable to keep gonis happy - ICP inside

[the_goodz]

Recently have ran into issues in keeping my gonis happy. I have been experimenting with different light/flow combinations by moving them in different parts of the tank over the past 6 months, and now figured it could be something with the water chemistry.

Does anything look out of the norm? I already plan on starting to add iodine to raise those levels, but nothing is sticking out to me.

My current maintenance schedule:
- 25% weekly water change for the past 4 months. Before that it was a 10% weekly water change.
- Dosing all for reef to maintain alk between 8-9
- Carbon dosing bactobalance at the minimum dosage to maintain phosphates between .03-.1

Any help is appreciated!

 

[Pod_01]

At a quick glance potassium is really low at 269, I would bring that up to 390 before playing with Iodine.

 

[the_goodz]

At a quick glance potassium is really low at 269, I would bring that up to 390 before playing with Iodine.

Is potassium something I should be monitoring if I am not keeping any SPS?

 

[The Mushroom Man]

Gonis can become gonners real fast, they are definitely picky on their nutrients, potassium is a little low I would continue the water changes and just keep at!

 

[the_goodz]

Gonis can become gonners real fast, they are definitely picky on their nutrients, potassium is a little low I would continue the water changes and just keep at!

Is red sea colors the crowd favorite for potassium supplementation? Or is there another favorite if I go the dosing route?

 

[Pod_01]

Is potassium something I should be monitoring if I am not keeping any SPS?

It is one of the main ions in the reef tank water so yes I would recommend making corrections based on ICP test. I don’t believe there are any useful hobby test kits that can measure potassium so ICP is the only way.

Also I believe potassium is required for coral growth, I may be wrong.

I never had potassium deficiency so I don’t have first hand experience with the consequences.

 

[the_goodz]

It is one of the main ions in the reef tank water so yes I would recommend making corrections based on ICP test. I don’t believe there are any useful hobby test kits that can measure potassium so ICP is the only way.

Also I believe potassium is required for coral growth, I may be wrong.

I never had potassium deficiency so I don’t have first hand experience with the consequences.

Sounds good! I use reef crystals as my salt, so not sure if it’s known to be low on the potassium side.

For dosing, would I aim to make up the 100~ I am missing, or would I shoot for the total 395~ amount per dose? Sorry if thats a dumb question.

 

[DaJMasta]

Potassium is a required one that is usually replenished by water changes, but in some cases you will need to supplement it. 269 ppm is definitely low enough to cause problems. I would also consider dosing manganese, as it's been linked to problems with gonis and yours is running low.

In my experience, some short tentacle gonis like less light than you expect and just barely tolerate or slowly recede when in higher light, and it's usually suggested to feed some kind of particulate food for goniopora, specifically. Gonipower is one developed with them in mind, in particular, but it's by no means the only option.

 

[Pod_01]

Sounds good! I use reef crystals as my salt, so not sure if it’s known to be low on the potassium side.

For dosing, would I aim to make up the 100~ I am missing, or would I shoot for the total 395~ amount per dose? Sorry if thats a dumb question.

Just add the delta 100. The ICP makes a suggestion on dosing if you use their bottle.
Since this is main ion I am not sure if you should bring it up in one go or spread it over few days as suggested.
With trace elements you generally want to go slow.

Hopefully @Randy Holmes-Farley can provide you with guidance on best way to raise potassium. Not something I have experimented with.

 

[C. Eymann]

That's the lowest potassium result I have ever seen to the point of me thinking it might be a possible testing error? However, Fauna Marin in my opinion is the best ICP resource we have in the hobby today and is what we use on the farm to determine trace dosing, and we did a lot of heavy vetting before that trust was established, so if that is the actual potassium value it could absolutely be the main contributing factor in the decline in coral health in general.

Also, Aluminum is through the roof. Do you use any ceramic biomedia or aluminum oxide based PO4 removers?

while there is a lot of talk of having NSW level manganese being particularly important to goni health, I don't think it's a make or break factor, esp because manganese has really poor solubility in seawater and it readily precipitates out at a fast rate, plenty of incidents of systems showing undetectable Mn have thriving corals / gonis
You definitely have deficiencies in a few other minor traces, but the two that concern me the most are that super depressed potassium level along with high aluminum.
Potassium isn't a minor trace and I think it gets lumped into the "trace" moniker incorrectly as it is occuring at 380-420ppm in NSW it should be viewed in the same significance as calcium, but it's not used up nearly as rapidly.
What salt mix is being used?
Non complicated / safe Fix :
10-15% W/C with a good/ close to NSW salt mix,every 48-72 hrs keeping a close eye on nutrients / feeding increase as needed to compensate for the dilution- to slowly raise K levels while diluting the high Aluminum levels


Otherwise, more complicated - using metazorb and dosing potassium chloride, I have a formulation/ calculation for KCL dosing Greg Hiller came up with that I have been using for a few years with a positive/ accurate correlation with test results but it's in my files at the farm For a more beginner-ish hobbyist, that also has elevated Al that needs to be diluted- small, (10-15%) frequent (3x a week) WC are going to be safest and simplest approach.

Best of luck

 

[the_goodz]

That's the lowest potassium result I have ever seen to the point of me thinking it might be a possible testing error? However, Fauna Marin in my opinion is the best ICP resource we have in the hobby today and is what we use on the farm to determine trace dosing, and we did a lot of heavy vetting before that trust was established, so if that is the actual potassium value it could absolutely be the main contributing factor in the decline in coral health in general.

Also, Aluminum is through the roof. Do you use any ceramic biomedia or aluminum oxide based PO4 removers?

while there is a lot of talk of having NSW level manganese being particularly important to goni health, I don't think it's a make or break factor, esp because manganese has really poor solubility in seawater and it readily precipitates out at a fast rate, plenty of incidents of systems showing undetectable Mn have thriving corals / gonis
You definitely have deficiencies in a few other minor traces, but the two that concern me the most are that super depressed potassium level along with high aluminum.
Potassium isn't a minor trace and I think it gets lumped into the "trace" moniker incorrectly as it is occuring at 380-420ppm in NSW it should be viewed in the same significance as calcium, but it's not used up nearly as rapidly.
What salt mix is being used?
Non complicated / safe Fix :
10-15% W/C with a good/ close to NSW salt mix,every other 48-72 hrs keeping a close eye on nutrients / feeding increase as needed to compensate for the dilution- to slowly raise K levels while diluting the high Aluminum levels

I am using reef crystals.

The high aluminum is most likely from using phosguard in the past. After reading a post from Randy saying that he didn’t see any ill effects until the 150~ range, I figured I would keep up with the water changes until my next ICP to see if there is something else possibly leaking it in my tank. But yes, the next culprit would be the marine pure ceramedia.

I will most likely start with dosing potassium and see where that takes me.

 

[the_goodz]

Also in regards to the high aluminum, my leathers have been very happy. I know they are usually a key indicator of aluminum levels so not sure if if that is the issue.

 

[VintageReefer]

I have approx 25 Goni. I haven’t done a water change in 10 years. I use all for reef weekly. I’ve never had an icp so I assume most my stuff is equal or worse than yours being we both use all for reef. I don’t run a skimmer. I don’t run mech filtration. I have a 75g tank with 7 fish, including two anthias and a tang. You would think my parameters must be crap but they are fairly normal. I tested yesterday

What stands out to me on the icp is manganese, which is not detectable. All for reef can’t keep up with this, it’s depleted fast. I need to dose a small amount of manganese concentrate daily.

Goni has been linked to improving snd being happier / healthier after manganese supplementation. I would recommend starting to dose this until you have consistent detectable levels before trying Goni again

 

[the_goodz]

I have approx 25 Goni. I haven’t done a water change in 10 years. I use all for reef weekly. I’ve never had an icp so I addsune most my stuff is equal or worse than yours being we both use all for reef. I don’t run a skimmer. I don’t run mech filtration. I have a 75g tank with 7 fish, including two anthias and a tang. You would think my parameters must be crap but they are fairly normal. I tested yesterday

What stands out to me on the icp is manganese, which is not detectable. All for reef can’t keep up with this, it’s depleted fast. I need to dose a small amount of manganese concentrate daily.

Goni has been linked to improving snd being happier / healthier after manganese supplementation. I would recommend starting to dose this until you have consistent detectable levels before trying Goni again

That is good to know. Do you go the diy route for mangenese or use a premade solution? I see AF Maganum recommended here on R2R but not sure if WWC or Top Shelf carry it locally here.

 

[C. Eymann]

That is good to know. Do you go the diy route for mangenese or use a premade solution? I see AF Maganum recommended here on R2R but not sure if WWC or Top Shelf carry it locally here.

We have the 250ml bottles of fauna Marin manganese at TSA in the store and on our website,
I still don't think that Mn dosing alone is going to cure your issue as some of our farm systems with thriving and growing Gonipora come back undetectable in Mn quite often on FM ICP.

If I saw that low of potassium level/ anything under 300 in our ( TSA) farm systems come back on a ICP test, my anxiety would crank up quite a few notches and it would be my primary concern.

Undetectable Mn levels ? Eh, yeah I'll dose to try to elevate to targets , but I wouldn't be panicking over it like I would a K level result that's under 300ppm.

If test is correct, you should be focusing on the cause of extremely low potassium and really high aluminum.

Undetectable Mn is not your smoking gun here, esp with the ridiculously low K levels, with elevated Al being a distant second.


Just my two pennies....

 

[VintageReefer]

That is good to know. Do you go the diy route for mangenese or use a premade solution? I see AF Maganum recommended here on R2R but not sure if WWC or Top Shelf carry it locally here.

The best company out there in my opinion for supplements - reef moonshiners. Literally an entire company designed around reviewing icp tests and replenishing what you need and skipping what you don’t need. the methodology certainly can be debated but that’s not the point. Need an obscure element - they sell it.

I don’t do the program. I needed manganese. They sell it. They have a dosing calculator. I bought it.
One bottle was approx 30-40$ shipped. By my dosing amount I calculate one bottle will last my 75g and 15g tanks Over a year with daily dosing. Can you make ir cheaper ? Maybe? Probably? I don’t care. Premade with a syringe and calculation tool, 40$ Annually, sold

20$ plus a rip off 20$ sh but maybe that’s where they make their money back. I just view it as a 40$ product.

Contact Andre Mueller

Contact Andre Mueller

andremueller.e-junkie.com

 

[braaap]

The best company out there in my opinion for supplements - reef moonshiners. Literally an entire company designed around reviewing icp tests and replenishing what you need and skipping what you don’t need. the methodology certainly can be debated but that’s not the point. Need an obscure element - they sell it.

I don’t do the program. I needed manganese. They sell it. They have a dosing calculator. I bought it.
One bottle was approx 30-40$ shipped. By my dosing amount I calculate one bottle will last my 75g and 15g tanks Over a year with daily dosing. Can you make ir cheaper ? Maybe? Probably? I don’t care. Premade with a syringe and calculation tool, 40$ Annually, sold

20$ plus a rip off 20$ sh but maybe that’s where they make their money back. I just view it as a 40$ product.

Contact Andre Mueller

Contact Andre Mueller

andremueller.e-junkie.com

That is actually really good info. I've been chasing SPS growth. They look great for weeks. Then die. Iodine was low. Started dosing. Getting growth, extension and color. Potassium is low. Was looking for a supplement and found ME Coral. But I would like to keep my supplements all to one vendor if I can.

Didn't even think about reef moonshiners or the fact that they had that program. Great info.

 

[C. Eymann]

The best company out there in my opinion for supplements - reef moonshiners. Literally an entire company designed around reviewing icp tests and replenishing what you need and skipping what you don’t need. the methodology certainly can be debated but that’s not the point. Need an obscure element - they sell it.

I don’t do the program. I needed manganese. They sell it. They have a dosing calculator. I bought it.
One bottle was approx 30-40$ shipped. By my dosing amount I calculate one bottle will last my 75g and 15g tanks Over a year with daily dosing. Can you make ir cheaper ? Maybe? Probably? I don’t care. Premade with a syringe and calculation tool, 40$ Annually, sold

20$ plus a rip off 20$ sh but maybe that’s where they make their money back. I just view it as a 40$ product.

Contact Andre Mueller

Contact Andre Mueller

andremueller.e-junkie.com

While I have never used moonshiners, I have heard and seen great systems that utilize it, and agree with a lot of Andre's methodology
That said Mn is present in very small amounts, with 6ug/l being around the recommended level.

With the fauna Marin manganese, the typical dosage correction bringing a 2000gal system from undetectable to around 6ug/l is still only~ 4-7ml, a 250ml bottle from FM lasts a very long time, even in farm usage settings / 20,000 of gallons of coral aquaculture systems.

Again ! Though, this discussion of Mn levels of OPs tank pale in comparison to their potassium values

Can't stress this enough OP
if your potassium is under 300ppm, that should be your main concern first, before you even think about trying to modulate your Mn levels.

Majority of successful reef tanks not utilizing trace dosing likely have undetectable Mn levels, it precipitates and is used up rapidly, however with potassium the same cannot be said and there are likely very few long term successful reef systems, if any, that have potassium values under 300 , it's supposed to be around the same concentration as calcium, it being so low esp under 300ppm is a MAJOR concern and can cause major issues with coral health.

Forget about your Mn levels until you fix your potassium

A Basic easy read publication on potassium-

Potassium in a Saltwater Aquarium and its Importance - Reef Pedia

Potassium belongs to the group of macroelements and is essential for the life of all organisms in a marine aquarium.

reefpedia.org

 

[VintageReefer]

I’m a heavy manganese consumer. I did have some issues with them opening, I researched and read about manganese, and started using it with good results. I also noticed they don’t like low nutrients. Phosphate from .1 - .2 and nitrates 5-10 seem ideal. I’ve played with many ranges from near zero up to .98 phosphate. The only time the Goni were unhappy was phosphate under .1

 

[VintageReefer]

That is actually really good info. I've been chasing SPS growth. They look great for weeks. Then die. Iodine was low. Started dosing. Getting growth, extension and color. Potassium is low. Was looking for a supplement and found ME Coral. But I would like to keep my supplements all to one vendor if I can.

Didn't even think about reef moonshiners or the fact that they had that program. Great info.

The store is great. Everything I know of comes in a large bottle. My daily dosing amount it says is .2ml a day. I am heavy consumer due to a turf scrubber and the large amount of Goni, I am dosing .3-.4 a day. I figure I would give it 2 months then send in for my first icp and see if manganese is detectable and adjust dosage as needed