Unbelievable meltdown- HELP!

[HolisticBear]

The drip for two hours is what most likely killed them. Ammonia built up in their water. Ammonia concentration in a sealed bag won't kill a fish, but once that water is exposed to fresh air, becomes toxic real quick.

If they were all together in one bag, then released into a bucket with the same water as the bag, then slow dripped for two hours, bingo! Dead fish, ammonia toxicity.

I purchased some aqua-cultured clowns recently from Coral Reef TN and the packing instructions say their 10 day live guarantee was ONLY good if I did a 15 minute float then release. In the past, I've always done semi-long acclimation to account for salinity and water differences. The packing notes stated they found the longer acclimation more stressful that salinity differences. I never would have done a float and release had they not strongly recommended it.

 

[Flippers4pups]

I purchased some aqua-cultured clowns recently from Coral Reef TN and the packing instructions say their 10 day live guarantee was ONLY good if I did a 15 minute float then release. In the past, I've always done semi-long acclimation to account for salinity and water differences. The packing notes stated they found the longer acclimation more stressful that salinity differences. I never would have done a float and release had they not strongly recommended it.

I'm of the same frame of mind. I don't drip anything except inverts and coral. Match salinity in the QT with the LFS tank water that the fish came out of. Float the unopened bag in my system for 15 minutes for temp and in they go. Works every time.

If you choose to drip, keep it short and what you take out, replace equally with DT water. Use a cup for removing and a different cup for filling.

Do not use Prime or Amquel to treat the holding water your dripping into if the fish came out of a LFS system that had copper in it. This will magnify the copper toxicity.

 

[GoVols]

Welp,
(lol) OP posted the thread of the evening.

 

[GoVols]

@Flippers4pups
Thanks for striking up the 2 hour drip.

Great Conversation!!!!!!!!

 

[Brew12]

I'm of the same frame of mind. I don't drip anything except inverts and coral. Match salinity in the QT with the LFS tank water that the fish came out of. Float the unopened bag in my system for 15 minutes for temp and in they go. Works every time.

If you choose to drip, keep it short and what you take out, replace equally with DT water. Use a cup for removing and a different cup for filling.

Do not use Prime or Amquel to treat the holding water your dripping into if the fish came out of a LFS system that had copper in it. This will magnify the copper toxicity.

This is exactly what I do. I lost a batch of fish trying to drip and add Prime. I didn't realize the LFS ran low levels of copper. Now I call ahead to find out what salinity the supplier keeps their tanks and match it to my QT. I take my time to temperature acclimate, open the bag so I can test the water to make sure the salinity is what I expected. If it matches I dump the shipping water through a strainer, catch the fish, and put him in the QT. So much easier and haven't had a problem.

 

[Bagelfish]

I think every marine aquarium owner should have a portable GFCI outlet if they don't use GFCI receptacles. They are cheap and easy to use. Here is one stocked in most Home Depots.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-Plug-In-GFCI-Adapter-3-Wire-Grounding-30339036/203741464

Used in conjunction with a ground probe they make detecting failing electrical equipment easy.

https://www.amazon.com/RV2735-Rid-V...8&qid=1491170583&sr=8-2&keywords=ground+probe

Install the ground probe then plug in your electrical devices into the GFCI unit one at a time. If it trips, you know that piece of equipment is faulty.
The

On a separate note, any chance you have gotten some soap in your system? Soap can very quickly kill fish as it clogs their gills and keeps them from breathing. Not sure how it affects inverts.

I think every marine aquarium owner should have a portable GFCI outlet if they don't use GFCI receptacles. They are cheap and easy to use. Here is one stocked in most Home Depots.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-Plug-In-GFCI-Adapter-3-Wire-Grounding-30339036/203741464

Used in conjunction with a ground probe they make detecting failing electrical equipment easy.

https://www.amazon.com/RV2735-Rid-V...8&qid=1491170583&sr=8-2&keywords=ground+probe

Install the ground probe then plug in your electrical devices into the GFCI unit one at a time. If it trips, you know that piece of equipment is faulty.


On a separate note, any chance you have gotten some soap in your system? Soap can very quickly kill fish as it clogs their gills and keeps them from breathing. Not sure how it affects inverts.

I think every marine aquarium owner should have a portable GFCI outlet if they don't use GFCI receptacles. They are cheap and easy to use. Here is one stocked in most Home Depots.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-Plug-In-GFCI-Adapter-3-Wire-Grounding-30339036/203741464

Used in conjunction with a ground probe they make detecting failing electrical equipment easy.

https://www.amazon.com/RV2735-Rid-V...8&qid=1491170583&sr=8-2&keywords=ground+probe

Install the ground probe then plug in your electrical devices into the GFCI unit one at a time. If it trips, you know that piece of equipment is faulty.


On a separate note, any chance you have gotten some soap in your system? Soap can very quickly kill fish as it clogs their gills and keeps them from breathing. Not sure how it affects inverts.

I think every marine aquarium owner should have a portable GFCI outlet if they don't use GFCI receptacles. They are cheap and easy to use. Here is one stocked in most Home Depots.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-Plug-In-GFCI-Adapter-3-Wire-Grounding-30339036/203741464

Used in conjunction with a ground probe they make detecting failing electrical equipment easy.

https://www.amazon.com/RV2735-Rid-V...8&qid=1491170583&sr=8-2&keywords=ground+probe

Install the ground probe then plug in your electrical devices into the GFCI unit one at a time. If it trips, you know that piece of equipment is faulty.


On a separate note, any chance you have gotten some soap in your system? Soap can very quickly kill fish as it clogs their gills and keeps them from breathing. Not sure how it affects inverts.

Cant imagine that any soap could have made it into the tank.

The drip for two hours is what most likely killed them. Ammonia built up in their water. Ammonia concentration in a sealed bag won't kill a fish, but once that water is exposed to fresh air, becomes toxic real quick.

If they were all together in one bag, then released into a bucket with the same water as the bag, then slow dripped for two hours, bingo! Dead fish, ammonia toxicity.

Doing that way your reducing the ammonia, adding oxygen to the water and helping the PH that the fish are in.
So yes, that's fine. Better to remove a small cup full and add DT water to replace it every 10 minutes.

Could be, but the fish seemed fine up until I put them in the tank.

 

[Brew12]

Have you run GAC in your system to try and remove any contaminants that may be in it?

 

[GoVols]

This is exactly what I do. I lost a batch of fish trying to drip and add Prime. I didn't realize the LFS ran low levels of copper. Now I call ahead to find out what salinity the supplier keeps their tanks and match it to my QT. I take my time to temperature acclimate, open the bag so I can test the water to make sure the salinity is what I expected. If it matches I dump the shipping water through a strainer, catch the fish, and put him in the QT. So much easier and haven't had a problem.

I Love it! and I catch the fish too but (lol) in my soapy hands.

 

[daelie]

I don't really know about the ammonia thing. Most of the time, the places that mention that are places that are shipping to you overnight, where you will see a build up, and admittedly I skimmed the thread, but I didn't see anywhere him mention that these weren't from a LFS down the street, in which case I wouldn't expect ammonia to build up that quickly, and it certainly wouldn't explain his previous disaster. If they were shipped overnight, then it certainly could point to ammonia. You could always go buy 1 damsel and just toss it in the tank and see what happens, which is a cruel thing to do, but it'll certainly rule out/in ammonia toxicity.

 

[cmcoker]

This is exactly what I do. I lost a batch of fish trying to drip and add Prime. I didn't realize the LFS ran low levels of copper. Now I call ahead to find out what salinity the supplier keeps their tanks and match it to my QT. I take my time to temperature acclimate, open the bag so I can test the water to make sure the salinity is what I expected. If it matches I dump the shipping water through a strainer, catch the fish, and put him in the QT. So much easier and haven't had a problem.

I do this as well. Except I use a 25g needle with syringe, place a piece of packing tape half attached to bag, poke bag with needle pull off water sample, cover the hole with rest of packing tape. Float bag as I test/adjust salinity in qt. Dump fish/water into strainer over bucket, chuck fish into tank.
Ive had good success with this and it doesn't even start the clock opening the bag and letting pH rise. Last fish was told 1.021, it was 1.018 when I got it home.
I also do not fill the QT tank completely before the fish arrives. I leave a few inches of space so if I have to lower salinity I can just add rodi without messing with buckets. I've never really had to raise salinity to match... But I have more saltwater on hand to top off the tank and could easily adjust up if needed.

Besides carbon, I'd throw a Boyd Poly Filter on there to see if you get any color changes. A triton test might not hurt either

 

[GoVols]

I don't really know about the ammonia thing. Most of the time, the places that mention that are places that are shipping to you overnight, where you will see a build up, and admittedly I skimmed the thread, but I didn't see anywhere him mention that these weren't from a LFS down the street, in which case I wouldn't expect ammonia to build up that quickly, and it certainly wouldn't explain his previous disaster. If they were shipped overnight, then it certainly could point to ammonia. You could always go buy 1 damsel and just toss it in the tank and see what happens, which is a cruel thing to do, but it'll certainly rule out/in ammonia toxicity.

Good point but on the rare occasion that I buy a fish it's coming from DD (WYSIWYG).
I have a great lfs but they get shipments in and in an hour a lot are already sold with no time to check their health.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Cant imagine that any soap could have made it into the tank.


Could be, but the fish seemed fine up until I put them in the tank.

I'm sorry, two hours drip acclimation is too long. More than enough time for ammonia to have become toxic.

 

[GoVols]

Could be, but the fish seemed fine up until I put them in the tank.

Then you would want to get a meter to rule out stray current.

At the same time @Flippers4pups has brought up a great point for all to learn about ph and ammonia raising to poisonous levels while acclimating new fish. I still drip but at a short period and dump half the water mid way threw.

My lfs gets shipments in from Cali. 2 times a week. They float for 15 mins and place the fish straight into their display without dripping like the other posters have stated on your thread.

Your started your thread and look how many hits it's got. That's a good thing and in the end we are sorry for your loss but either way your thread could help some of these hits learn a thing or 2.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Just trying to help.

Happy reefing

 

[GoVols]

Just trying to help.

Happy reefing

It's great help!

I never knew about copper and prime until tonight and lfs's use copper all the time in their fish only systems.

 

[Flippers4pups]

It's great help!

I never knew about copper and prime until tonight and lfs's use copper all the time in their fish only systems.

From seachem's site:

"with a dechlorinator, such as Prime® then the Cu2+ will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than 2+."

In simple terms, it can take the copper in the water and turn it into 10 times as strong. Therapeutic levels are okay for most fish, except for some wrasse and dwarf angel fish, but 10 times more instantly is deadly.

Glad to help. I'll see if I can find some papers on the reaction and post them as a article.

 

[kashman100]

Already using a portable GFCI. Didn't know that hang-on filters were preferable to canisters. I've been out of the loop for many years. Canisters were considered state of the art back when I started my first saltwater tank. Of course, undergravel filters were also considered a necessity back then. Should I buy new lights? I don't think I can remove or seal the metal on my current lights.

For the rust: Sand, then use a rust converter (Any auto parts store has it) and then topcoat. This will last a long time.

Had a meltdown back in January. All fish died overnight (not inverts) in a very stable tank which had been running over a year (37 gal. Bowfront: API canister, coral life skimmer). Checked all levels at the time, everything in order. FYI: Had broken down and cleaned the canister several days before the meltdown, Chalked it up to one of the mysteries of saltwater fish keeping. Let the tank run, doing routine maintenance until this week. Decided it was time to add some fish. Checked levels: ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all 0; phosphate at .07, ph 8.0, salinity 1.023, temp 78. Bought three new damsels and dripped them for 2 hours. Added them to tank and walked away briefly. Came back 3 minutes later and all were dead. I honestly don't know what to check or measure at this point. Never seen anything like this. I have spent some time closely observing the tank over the last several days. I noticed that there is considerable rust and corrosion on the metal legs of my led light strip. Haven't really paid much attention to it. Could this be creating a toxin which could kill the fish? Not a chemist so I don't really have a clue. I know some will say I should have quarantined. I get it, but that doesn't explain the first meltdown. Those fish had been in my tank for 6 months or more. I would greatly appreciate any insight that anyone could offer. As I said, I really don't know where to go from here. Thanks, in advance for your comments.

 

[jeff williams]

There's a lot of guesses as to the problem but if you got the fish from Lfs I highly doubt ammonia was the problem. Your system was running for a year before the first incident, rember back did you do anything WC add stress gaurd prime ect the day before. Was your sand and gravel new when your tank was set up. Is it possible you got live rock from the same Lfs on your system at start up then added something to cause copper to leach out of this rock. I'm not ruling out stray voltage however I'm betting you've had your hands inside your tank quit a few times since the first incident and I'm sure you would have been lit up by now. After the 1st incident did you do a large WC before adding these damsels copper stays in suspension it don't evaporate anyways just some food for thought good luck

 

[Flippers4pups]

There's a lot of guesses as to the problem but if you got the fish from Lfs I highly doubt ammonia was the problem. Your system was running for a year before the first incident, rember back did you do anything WC add stress gaurd prime ect the day before. Was your sand and gravel new when your tank was set up. Is it possible you got live rock from the same Lfs on your system at start up then added something to cause copper to leach out of this rock. I'm not ruling out stray voltage however I'm betting you've had your hands inside your tank quit a few times since the first incident and I'm sure you would have been lit up by now. After the 1st incident did you do a large WC before adding these damsels copper stays in suspension it don't evaporate anyways just some food for thought good luck

I think your missing the point. He bought them at the LFS. They were in bags during the trip home. During that time the ammonia would have built up in the bag water. Releasing them, with the bag water that has the ammonia in it into a bucket. Once that water gets exposed to fresh air, the ammonia becomes more toxic.

Dripping them in the same water for two hours with even the smallest amount of ammonia is deadly, damaging their gills, thus suffocating them due to the lack of O2 in their bloodstream. Release into any tank is stressful and that would have required more O2 in the blood due to elevated blood pressure from the stress. Stress, lack of O2 and gill damage killed them.

Half an hour would have been max dripping and still would have to remove some of the old water every 5-10 minutes to remove some of the ammonia during the drip.

Hope this clears up what all of us were discussing.

 

[jeff williams]

I think your missing the point. He bought them at the LFS. They were in bags during the trip home. During that time the ammonia would have built up in the bag water. Releasing them, with the bag water that has the ammonia in it into a bucket. Once that water gets exposed to fresh air, the ammonia becomes more toxic.

Dripping them in the same water for two hours with even the smallest amount of ammonia is deadly, damaging their gills, thus suffocating them due to the lack of O2 in their bloodstream. Release into any tank is stressful and that would have required more O2 in the blood due to elevated blood pressure from the stress. Stress, lack of O2 and gill damage killed them.

Half an hour would have been max dripping and still would have to remove some of the old water every 5-10 minutes to remove some of the ammonia during the drip.

Hope this clears up what all of us were discussing.

I think your missing the point there is no way purchasing fish at the Lfs and driving home produced enough ammonia if any at all unless his Lfs is 10 hrs + away and that wouldn't be considered an Lfs. I can buy fish through the mail have them shipped and there in a bag for 15+ hrs and drip acclimate them and there fine. However I would not reccomed drip acclimation on fish in a bag that long. But there is now way coming from the Lfs they produced that much ammonia. It's not the air that makes ammonia more toxic it's the ph and I'm not sure about his Lfs but mine bag there fish with o2 and more o2 in the wAter = higher ph which cause the ammonia to convert to it's more toxic state. Lower ph there's still the same amount of ammonia in the water it's just in a less toxic state