Undetectable Phosphates???

[Scott.h]

I'm honestly confused at this point my tank is clearly having some issue and i can't put my finger on it. I can't keep any sps at all they all die within a week or 2. All my parameters are good.

Be cautious on how much advice you take. There are 1000 things it could be and you'll get a lot of different answers. I highly doubt it's po4 related by your numbers, and adding something like gfo or carbon dosing may make your unknown problem worse with those numbers. Have you done an ICP test?

 

[Reeftang]

Be cautious on how much advice you take. There are 1000 things it could be and you'll get a lot of different answers. I highly doubt it's po4 related by your numbers, and adding something like gfo or carbon dosing may make your unknown problem worse with those numbers. Have you done an ICP test?

What is icp test?

 

[Scott.h]

What is icp test?

Inductively coupled plasma/Triton test or the equivalent. A more extensive test to see if you might have contaminants, or unwanted metals in the water.

There are many variables that come into play. Stability, age of the tank, alkalinity are probably the most common.

 

[Reeftang]

OK, but I'll just note that reducing nutrients isn't always going to reduce algae before it begins to harm corals. Other methods, such as herbivores, may be more successful. Some green growth on the glass is normal/desirable, IMO.

Randy I was doing some reading about dosing phosphates, should I give it a try?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy I was doing some reading about dosing phosphates, should I give it a try?

Depends on the reason.

If the concern is corals pale or visibly suffering, or a concern over getting dinos, then phosphate dosing when levels are very low is a fine plan. The drawbacks would be minor, but might include more algae growth.

If the concern is an algae (not dinos), then dosing phosphate is unlikely to be helpful.

 

[Reeftang]

Depends on the reason.

If the concern is corals pale or visibly suffering, or a concern over getting dinos, then phosphate dosing when levels are very low is a fine plan. The drawbacks would be minor, but might include more algae growth.

If the concern is an algae (not dinos), then dosing phosphate is unlikely to be helpful.

Well I do have a coral problem, my lps corals are not pully open like they should be and every sps coral I put in bleached within 2 weeks and I did have dinos in a few months back, and now that I'm thinking about it, it can all be related to insufficient phosphates. I do however have a green color on my rocks and sand.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well I do have a coral problem, my lps corals are not pully open like they should be and every sps coral I put in bleached within 2 weeks and I did have dinos in a few months back, and now that I'm thinking about it, it can all be related to insufficient phosphates. I do however have a green color on my rocks and sand.

The risk is algae gets worse, but you can always stop dosing.

 

[Reeftang]

The risk is algae gets worse, but you can always stop dosing.

I don't necessarily have a bad here algae problem. Should I just try feeding the corals first?

 

[Chris Villalobos]

I just want to add a little input because I feel ya! How can a person have "perfect" parameters, still have hair algae while the corals are dying? My problem, though it may not be yours, was that my NO3 and PO4 were virtually undetectable and the hair algae I have is Derbesia which can survive in very low nutrient conditions and the clean up crew doesn't particularly like it. When it's long even Tangs and Sea Hares will not touch it.

My solution was to scrub the rocks of the offending algae with H2O2 to get at its base in the rock and also let my nutrients rise to low but testable levels. The hair algae is now under control, and I'm able to keep corals again.

 

[Reeftang]

I just want to add a little input because I feel ya! How can a person have "perfect" parameters, still have hair algae while the corals are dying? My problem, though it may not be yours, was that my NO3 and PO4 were virtually undetectable and the hair algae I have is Derbesia which can survive in very low nutrient conditions and the clean up crew doesn't particularly like it. When it's long even Tangs and Sea Hares will not touch it.

My solution was to scrub the rocks of the offending algae with H2O2 to get at its base in the rock and also let my nutrients rise to low but testable levels. The hair algae is now under control, and I'm able to keep corals again.

Very interesting what you are saying I'm going to research this right now. Thanks

 

[Reeftang]

I just want to add a little input because I feel ya! How can a person have "perfect" parameters, still have hair algae while the corals are dying? My problem, though it may not be yours, was that my NO3 and PO4 were virtually undetectable and the hair algae I have is Derbesia which can survive in very low nutrient conditions and the clean up crew doesn't particularly like it. When it's long even Tangs and Sea Hares will not touch it.

My solution was to scrub the rocks of the offending algae with H2O2 to get at its base in the rock and also let my nutrients rise to low but testable levels. The hair algae is now under control, and I'm able to keep corals again.

Can the growth of this be caused inspite of low phosphates? Regardless I'm not having it bad here is a pic of the worst spot.

 

[Reeftang]

Can the growth of this be caused inspite of low phosphates? Regardless I'm not having it bad here is a pic of the worst spot.

And even those are not fully green they have like a washed out look.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Here is what I believe to be Derbesia. For scale those zoas are only 1/8" in diameter. It may not be what you have but this stuff can survive in conditions that even bubble algae will not.

 

[Reeftang]

Here is what I believe to be Derbesia. For scale those zoas are only 1/8" in diameter. It may not be what you have but this stuff can survive in conditions that even bubble algae will not.

So raising the nutrient levels helped with this?

 

[Chris Villalobos]

So raising the nutrient levels helped with this?

Raising the nutrients keeps my hard corals from dying. I had to scrub the rock with H2O2 to remove the hair algae infestation, maybe half of the zoas survived it. I unfortunately killed my Green Star Polyp colony when using an H2O2 dip to rid it of this algae. BRS investigates showed that you may be able to just drain the tank for a moment and spray H2O2 on the affected areas. I have not tried that method yet but I have some really low base rocks in my tank that still grow the stuff so I may do that in the future. Some have suggested mixing h2o2 with glycerin to get it on submerged rocks, but I didn't have much luck with that technique.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

I just went back and read that your Nitrates are pretty high compared to your phosphates. In my tank I had both NO3 and PO4 testing at zero. There has been talk about the Redfield Ratio meaning you want to balance your NO3 and PO4 to something like 16:1. I don't know how much truth there is to that but it might be something to shoot for meaning if your PO4 is o.08 PPM your Nitrates should be around 1 PPM. Who knows.

I just know that keeping my nutrients low but testable and also attacking that Derbesia when I see it has kept my tank looking a lot more healthy. My corals would probably grow faster with higher nutrients but I don't want that algae to come back ever!

 

[Reeftang]

I just went back and read that your Nitrates are pretty high compared to your phosphates. In my tank I had both NO3 and PO4 testing at zero. There has been talk about the Redfield Ratio meaning you want to balance your NO3 and PO4 to something like 16:1. I don't know how much truth there is to that but it might be something to shoot for meaning if your PO4 is o.08 PPM your Nitrates should be around 1 PPM. Who knows.

I just know that keeping my nutrients low but testable and also attacking that Derbesia when I see it has kept my tank looking a lot more healthy. My corals would probably grow faster with higher nutrients but I don't want that algae to come back ever!

ye I'm in the process of bringing down my nitrates. But I think I will try either coral feeding or phosphate dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't necessarily have a bad here algae problem. Should I just try feeding the corals first?

I'd personally dose so you have control and don't risk dinos.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There has been talk about the Redfield Ratio meaning you want to balance your NO3 and PO4 to something like 16:1. I don't know how much truth there is to that !

I personally don't think that makes any sense, but I agree many people talk about it.

If my nitrate is very high, is that a reason that I should strive for very high phosphate?

Likewise, if nitrate is super low, should I aim for super low phosphate?

I can't see a good rational in either case, and think both N and P should be independently targeted to optimal levels.

 

[Scott.h]

Well I do have a coral problem, my lps corals are not pully open like they should be and every sps coral I put in bleached within 2 weeks and I did have dinos in a few months back, and now that I'm thinking about it, it can all be related to insufficient phosphates. I do however have a green color on my rocks and sand.

Sounds like po4 could be a help. When referring to the current algae on the rocks, how old is the system?