Urgent!! Do I have ich or velvet?

Humblefish · Mar 13, 2017

salty150 said:
Why couldn't you do it in hypo...?

Taken from here: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/copper-treatment-use-problems.23130/

When copper ions get into our aquarium water, they will complex with several other salt water ingredients and some of the things we put in our aquariums. Copper ions, as noted above, are very fond of forming complexes with carbonates. When they do, this complex is not very soluble at the pH of our aquariums and it will precipitate, or come out of solution.

Copper ions will do the same with rocks and substrates that contain any form of carbonate materials. This is one reason why it is best to use copper medications in a bare-bottom hospital tank without live rock, dead rock, and carbonate based decorations.

The precipitated copper-carbonate will redissolve if the pH of the aquarium water goes down. This has the effect of suddenly increasing the amount of copper in the tank water. So, the aquarist thinks they are in control of the copper concentration only to find that there is a surge of copper when the pH drops. In addition to maintaining the effective copper concentration, attention has to be given to the holding the pH of the water steady. By the way, this surge in copper, no matter how short of time it is, is enough to permanently injure, poison, or kill the fish being treated.

salty150 · Mar 13, 2017

Humblefish said:
Taken from here: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/copper-treatment-use-problems.23130/

Yes, I added to my post before you responded

And use Ruby Reef Rally...

Rally takes care of velvet and flukes - while the hypo takes care of the ich.

Humblefish · Mar 13, 2017

salty150 said:
Yes, I added to my post before you responded

And use Ruby Reef Rally...

Rally takes care of velvet and flukes - while the hypo takes care of the ich.

Rally only provides temporary relief, it will not 100% eradicate.

salty150 · Mar 13, 2017

Humblefish said:
Rally only provides temporary relief, it will not 100% eradicate.

I did not know that...

This is the first time I am hearing that...

Even if you apply RALLY once per day for at least three days - and even longer until the velvet is gone?

melypr1985 · Mar 13, 2017

salty150 said:
I did not know that...

This is the first time I am hearing that...

Even if you apply RALLY once per day for at least three days - and even longer until the velvet is gone?

Yes. It's mainly just an antiseptic. We use it before treating for velvet to help stop infections that tend to pop up as a result of the velvet parasite.

Humblefish · Mar 13, 2017

melypr1985 said:
Yes. It's mainly just an antiseptic. We use it before treating for velvet to help stop infections that tend to pop up as a result of the velvet parasite.

+1 Formalin would have a better chance at eradicating velvet. However, there's no evidence even that works 100%. Only copper & CP have been proven.

125mph · Mar 14, 2017

Well, so far I raised salinity to 1.014.. Probably will finish tonight to 1.015-1.016 and then tomorrow to 1.021 or so and then cupramine. The regal and PT still eating aggressively, so thats good.

Good news too, that my potters angel that came last Tuesday started eating today. Took only 6 days :0 ... he was a little hesitant of the brine shrimp but once he got a taste, he started eating very aggressively.

Maritimer · Mar 14, 2017

Good to hear! Fingers crossed here, that you've caught it in time . . .

~Bruce

125mph · Mar 14, 2017

I raised salinity to 1.019. I may have gone too fast so I'm gonna stop now and let evaporation take me back up. Will start coppersafe tonight. The regal angel and PT looks highly stressed while other fish all appear normal, probably because they're already weak.

My melanurus wrasse is pecking at both of them as if he trying to clean them. They don't seem to care. Should I put him in the other tank or this normal behavior?

Maritimer · Mar 14, 2017

I know that juveniles of a lot of wrasses will clean - can't help but wonder, though, whether he's cleaning or sensing their weakness. It concerns me somewhat that they "don't seem to care". Most fish will either present themselves to be cleaned, or try to shrug off the attention.

~Bruce

125mph · Mar 14, 2017

Yep its strange.. There's no marks on either fish.. the melanurus is very small, about 2.75" and its in initial phase.

Well, I just feed them and they were attacking the food hard so I guess they aren't about to die yet.

Dosing right now! I think I will split the coppersafe dose over 3 days to get to 2.00 ppm (depending on how they take it).

125mph · Mar 15, 2017

What's the best type of mechanical filter to take out large particles that don't absorb carbon?

I was using filter flissvwith the blue backing but I removed it from the hob filter. Can I just add fiber fill from the craft store?

Humblefish · Mar 15, 2017

125mph said:
What's the best type of mechanical filter to take out large particles that don't absorb carbon?

I was using filter flissvwith the blue backing but I removed it from the hob filter. Can I just add fiber fill from the craft store?

The filter floss with the blue backing is fine to use.

Or something like this would remove large particles: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4136+4150+32821&pcatid=32821

Something like this would remove finer particles (but also clog faster): http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4136+4150+4353&pcatid=4353

ngoodermuth · Mar 15, 2017

@Humblefish I'm building my first aid kit for QT. Right now I have no fish with velvet but just trying to be "prepared" in case it pops up with future purchases. In your first link you mentioned acriflavin/reef rally as a bath to kill the velvet in the fish, and cp or copper in the QT to kill free swimmers.
I'd prefer to stay away from formalin and cp. Do you feel like fw dip, ruby reef bath, and copper treatment will do the trick? Also, what if you want to raise the copper a bit slower rather than dumping fish in the therapeutic dose >.35. I'm thinking wrasses.

melypr1985 · Mar 15, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
I'd prefer to stay away from formalin and cp. Do you feel like fw dip, ruby reef bath, and copper treatment will do the trick? Also, what if you want to raise the copper a bit slower rather than dumping fish in the therapeutic dose >.35. I'm thinking wrasses.

Yes that would do a fine job. The ruby reef rally is really just an antiseptic that will help keep infection at bay while the copper does it's thing. It doesn't necessarily kill velvet. The freshwater dip will rid it of some of the velvet and flush out the gills enough so that he doesn't suffocate while the copper is doing it's thing. You can raise the copper slower.... we like to advise raising it within 24 hours though.

Humblefish · Mar 15, 2017

melypr1985 said:
Yes that would do a fine job. The ruby reef rally is really just an antiseptic that will help keep infection at bay while the copper does it's thing. It doesn't necessarily kill velvet. The freshwater dip will rid it of some of the velvet and flush out the gills enough so that he doesn't suffocate while the copper is doing it's thing. You can raise the copper slower.... we like to advise raising it within 24 hours though.

+1 FW dip clears roughly 80% of the parasites/worms, Rally (acriflavine) bath wards off infection from all the tiny bite marks, and then copper finishes the job.

However, fish with preexisting bacterial infections will often also require antibiotic treatment in QT, in addition to copper.

125mph · Mar 15, 2017

Humblefish said:
+1 FW dip clears roughly 80% of the parasites/worms, Rally (acriflavine) bath wards off infection from all the tiny bite marks, and then copper finishes the job.

However, fish with preexisting bacterial infections will often also require antibiotic treatment in QT, in addition to copper.

I was just about to ask you this same question! The regal angel and PT are breathing very heavily as of this morning. I did the feed test to see if they still have appetite and they did eat very well. I'm going to do another fw dip today at lunch to get rid of some of the velvet that developed over the last two days while I was bringing up salinity.

I was debating on doing a formalin bath or ruby bath afterwards but I'd rather not stress them more unless it will kill more velvet. I think f/w dip for now and get copper to full strength.

Will use kanaplex in a week which I think you said is fine with copper?..

ngoodermuth · Mar 15, 2017

Humblefish said:
+1 FW dip clears roughly 80% of the parasites/worms, Rally (acriflavine) bath wards off infection from all the tiny bite marks, and then copper finishes the job.

However, fish with preexisting bacterial infections will often also require antibiotic treatment in QT, in addition to copper.

Thank you both, again thinking of wrasses and other delicate fish, which antibiotic would you suggest to keep on hand?

125mph · Mar 15, 2017

Still can't beleive this happen from Diver's Den fish.. I thought their QT practices was 100% but I guess when they're running UV and various other things, symptoms can easily be masked until arriving to someones home.

melypr1985 · Mar 15, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
Thank you both, again thinking of wrasses and other delicate fish, which antibiotic would you suggest to keep on hand?

Kanaplex and/or Furan 2 are my go-to's.

125mph said:
Still can't beleive this happen from Diver's Den fish.. I thought their QT practices was 100% but I guess when they're running UV and various other things, symptoms can easily be masked until arriving to someones home.

They do their best, but no wholesaler and 99% of retailers are going to be able to QT properly. Never trust any QT but your own.