Uronema becoming big problem these days? (Aside from chromis)

[ReefWithCare]

Aren’t there better suppliers other than quality marine like sea dwelling creatures or just transshipping from Africa (seems to be the new Indo these days)?

Does QM have a monopoly or something?

How are tank bred fish faring?

 

[Fastpitch]

As someone that’s moved through well over 100 fish from QM I cant speak to others as definitively as I can say QM is ridden with bacterial infections and uronema right now in addition to the standard flukes, ich, and velvet. We have about 75 fish in 6 quarantine tanks as we speak, two 125G, 2 55G, a 40B, and a 20G.

Our unfinished portion of our basements look like an LFS. LOL

The smaller number of fish from other vendors have not been exhibiting these symptoms but admittedly this sample size is MUCH smaller.

Judging by the fish disease forum we monitor daily I would say you’re probably right— it’s everywhere. The distribution system. in its entirety, is in bad shape.

Gosh, Seems like the Ich that we all obsessed about even just a few months back was a day at the beach.

 

[Dan Snyder]

I would say yes, could also be a bacterial infection but that sure looks like uronema to me. Did it die with its mouth open?

Mouth was not open.

 

[dwest]

Well,

This giant quarantine batch has found a rare foe— or I thought rare at least.

Unless you’re a chromis or occasional butterfly you (or at least I have) never given a second thought to uronema. Admittedly I’ve mostly dismissed it until now aside from chromis and butterflies.

Now I’m having flashbacks to fish losses over the past 6 months. I started a large flame angel group and within days lost 11/12 and two butterflies. On a red fish it was tough to ID the culprit. I finally saw it on a fish yesterday. Classic red “slash marks” and everything starts to make sense. This was moving at a pace much faster than I remember for uronema. Some died within 24 hours. I thought we had a killer fish in quarantine, but we watched hours of video and NO aggression. I feel pretty dumb as my experience has led me to uronema in the past— I just didn’t think it common in other fish.

Hopefully we’ve contained it, but what an ordeal. It took out three wrasse, 11 flame angels, and two butterflies. In fairness, one or more of these fish may have died from something else, as they came direct from QM and I’ll publically admit I’m starting to wonder very much about the quality of their livestock.

As I reflect back I’ve lost a couple regal angels to similar symptoms. We blamed on infections, and they may have been as those are bad too now.

We are starting to see brook on fish other than clownfish on occasion as well now. It’s rough out there folks. I HIGHLY recommend you not toss fish in your DT unquarantined right now.

So @HotRocks and I are now seasoned ich, velvet, bacterial infection, and uronema veterans. Bacterial infections have grown exponentially over the past 6 months in our opinion (we quarantine a ton of fish) but I’m starting to wonder if Uronema is to blame for some of this. In fact, I highly suspect it is.

Just thought I’d share our struggles and observations so others can learn. We quarantine a large number of fish between all of our tanks and now stocking my 500G wall tank we are really in the trenches. It’s tough out there.

Is anyone else having similar issues?

Particularly from QM?

This is an article about Uronema by the real seasoned fish disease master, @Humblefish.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/uronema-marinum.247940/

Based on this information would @HotRocks modify his quarantine procedure?

 

[HotRocks]

Based on this information would @HotRocks modify his quarantine procedure?

Still testing several different things. We have 6 QTs going right now. Some new fish arrived yesterday. Some went directly into 1.75ppm copper + metro. Some went into 1.0ppm copper + metro. Some went into therapeutic CP. Due to this Uronema outbreak we may have to change the copper protocol to include metronidazole. Before changing the sticky I want to repeat it several times with success to make sure all the fish tolerate it.

 

[4FordFamily]

Ive got 2 fish in my qt. A foxface and a blonde naso. Ive treated prophalactically with metro and prazi and 4 weeks of copper. Both fish look healthy and are eating hearty, although the naso was on a hunger strike for first 2 weeks. Do i now have to remove all copper from the system to see if they are healthy? How much longer should they be in QT?

I would observe for another week watching for behavior and symptoms (no scratching, flashing, etc).

I didn't start having success until I stopped fighting (with copper).

My livestock choices are dwarf angels, a butterfly, and two halichoeres wrasses.

I notice the low number of fish. No disrespect intended but that’s a bit easier. Some butterfly are pretty hardy. Halichoeres are particularly resistant to parasites due to thick slime coats, sleeping in mucous cocoons, AND sleeping under the sand.

Thanks to all of you for your research, time and most of all sharing this information. It certainly made it possible to get my last two fish into my DT.
As I think back to the ones before that we lost Uronema was probably the culprit. Symptoms and physically appear to be what it was. Seriously appreciate this thread!

Glad to help!

Aren’t there better suppliers other than quality marine like sea dwelling creatures or just transshipping from Africa (seems to be the new Indo these days)?

Does QM have a monopoly or something?

How are tank bred fish faring?

QM supplies many of the largest online retailers and many LFS. Here locally every pet store or LFS I know uses them. Perhaps not exclusively, but the most. When I worked at an LFS 13 years ago they used them exclusively as well.

 

[Ppoeschl]

Again, this is not just qm thing. This didn't just become a problem. I would also not rely on metronidazole to alleviate the problem.

 

[Humblefish]

Does QM have a monopoly or something?

They have a monopoly on the “hard to find” livestock. Really sucks when you can’t get an account with them.

 

[johnbr]

They have a monopoly on the “hard to find” livestock. Really sucks when you can’t get an account with them.

I'm sorry but what QM stands for?

Also,

Does any of you combo Prazipro + General Cure post Copper for 10-14 days?

 

[Reefahholic]

[QUOTE="4FordFamily, post: 5517882, member: 51404" I would say it’s necessary. By the time you know you have an issue it’ll be too late.[/QUOTE]

You hit the nail on the head here Ford. Especially with Uronema...it's crucial that if you even suspect it...prophylactically treat for it. Get the fish eating Metro. Or API GC.

I can't personally say I've had success treating Uronema. I've never successfully treated it that i'm aware of. If you see it...it's too late IMO unless Metro does in fact work.

I'm testing things now and will report back soon.

 

[Reefahholic]

I didn't start having success until I stopped fighting (with copper).

My livestock choices are dwarf angels, a butterfly, and two halichoeres wrasses.

So you just "Pop and Drop" now.

I'm sorry man, but that's like driving the roads in Afghanistan in an unarmored vehicle.

 

[brwaldbaum]

So you just "Pop and Drop" now.

I'm sorry man, but that's like driving the roads in Afghanistan in an unarmored vehicle.

No. Forty-five minute bath in 200ppm formalin, followed by 5 minute freshwater/peroxide dip, and then "plop." (My butterfly had a red mark on his side when I bought him, so he also got antibiotics for 3 days.)

In my opinion, 1000's of needless fish deaths start with the conviction that "YOU MUST USE COPPER!".

 

[4FordFamily]

Again, this is not just qm thing. This didn't just become a problem. I would also not rely on metronidazole to alleviate the problem.

How long have you worked at QM?

Not sure how you could possibly know that. That’s a pretty definitive claim.

I also suspect the root issue may NOT be QM or any other wholesaler. I highly suspect that the suppliers of the wholesalers are cutting corners and expenses because they're unsure if they will be around/able to collect and sell tomorrow. All of this talk about banning shipments of coral and fish around the world -- it's no surprise. It's tough to justify the capital investment if you don't know if your business will be around next week, it changes everything to a short-term focus.

Metro does a good job, it is one way to treat them internally and externally.

 

[brwaldbaum]

I notice the low number of fish. No disrespect intended but that’s a bit easier. Some butterfly are pretty hardy. Halichoeres are particularly resistant to parasites due to thick slime coats, sleeping in mucous cocoons, AND sleeping under the sand.

Every success without copper must be rationalized, because "YOU MUST USE COPPER!".

Maybe I did get lucky. I haven't been in the hobby long enough to know. But, I do know that I'm no longer flushing fish and money down the toilet, because I flushed the copper down the toilet.

(Doesn't stocking density count for something? Aside from one of the dwarf angels, all of my fish are in a forty breeder. The C. ferrugata gets his own tank.)

 

[4FordFamily]

No. Forty-five minute bath in 200ppm formalin, followed by 5 minute freshwater/peroxide dip, and then "plop." (My butterfly had a red mark on his side when I bought him, so he also got antibiotics for 3 days.)

In my opinion, 1000's of needless fish deaths start with the conviction that "YOU MUST USE COPPER!".

We have dealt now with hundreds of fish (and very recently IE in the last year to two years is all I am mentioning). It’s one thing to believe something and another to test and experience on a large scale. I’d love to hear another way you’ve tested that’s worked large scale and long-term especially on a large number of fish— and recently. Things have gotten horrendous recently.

I’m not saying there aren’t other ways to skin a cat but we’ve discovered that since the Hanna copper checker (for accurate measure) and the inconsistent bottles of coppersafe— people were greatly overdosing fish and before beneficial bacteria in a bottle that actually worked were discovered, most fish died of low 02 levels, ammonia, and overdosing in copper.

 

[4FordFamily]

No. Forty-five minute bath in 200ppm formalin, followed by 5 minute freshwater/peroxide dip, and then "plop." (My butterfly had a red mark on his side when I bought him, so he also got antibiotics for 3 days.)

In my opinion, 1000's of needless fish deaths start with the conviction that "YOU MUST USE COPPER!".

You should also know that formalin is MUCH harder on fish than copper (if used properly). I am sure @Humblefish can elaborate but it’s dangerous for people to come in contact with.

 

[brwaldbaum]

You should also know that formalin is MUCH harder on fish than copper (if used properly). I am sure @Humblefish can elaborate but it’s dangerous for people to come in contact with.

Try dosing your QT with 200ppm cupric ion and report back in 45 minutes.

Or 45 seconds.

 

[Reefahholic]

No. Forty-five minute bath in 200ppm formalin, followed by 5 minute freshwater/peroxide dip, and then "plop." (My butterfly had a red mark on his side when I bought him, so he also got antibiotics for 3 days.)

In my opinion, 1000's of needless fish deaths start with the conviction that "YOU MUST USE COPPER!".

OK, so what if one of the fish has ICH? Ever heard of Theront penetration? What about velvet? These are the two most common killers. What you've mentioned above is a good 1st step maybe, but it's simply not enough to eradicate the parasites. Antibiotics for 3 days isn't enough either. Why 3 days? I've been working in a hospital for the last 12 years and there's never a patient on antibiotics for 3 days. It's simply not long enough. You'll never find a doctor that prescribes antibiotics for 3 days only. There is a reason behind that. If you stop antibiotic therapy early, you can create what we refer to as a MDRO (multi drug resistant organism). You need to do some research. I'm not trying to pick on you man, but your methods are a bit flawed. Plain and simple. These things are already established and have been for years. It's not even up for debate. You need to get on track with the rest of us and do it right.

 

[HotRocks]

Try dosing your QT with 200ppm cupric ion and report back in 45 minutes.

Or 45 seconds.

Why in the world would you suggest that comparison? 200ppm of any type of copper is 100 times the proper dosage. Specifically ionic copper it would be 400 times the proper dosage. Copper sulfate pentahydrate would be 1000 times the proper dosage. Of course that would be toxic.

Have you tried copper using a proper test kit like the Hanna checker? I lose very few fish that are treated in copper. You have 4 fish and you are going to contradict people who have treated hundreds?

There is an alternative to copper called chloroquine phosphate. (CP) that works on "most" species.

Did you miss the point that this thread was created to try to help others and STOP unnecessary fish loss?

 

[4FordFamily]

I'm sorry but what QM stands for?

Also,

Does any of you combo Prazipro + General Cure post Copper for 10-14 days?

Quality Marine