Using Nitrifying Bacteria- Your experience

[Reefapprentice]

Being in the final stages of setting up another tank it occurred to me that instead of using the tried and true shrimp method, I began reading of nitrifying bacteria live culture treatments. What is your experience if you have had any using these products and what feedback would you give those looking into it? I will more than likely add a bit of lab grade ammonia and just let the tank cycle with some live rock and a bit of live sand.

 

[User]

My last 180, I cycled with ammonia and biospira and cycle was complete in 9 days.

I’m setting up a new tank. Finished filling and mixing salt in monday.

Exactly 48 hours ago, I added 13.6 ml of 10% ammonia into my 180 g tank to achieve 2ppm.

I then added 500ml of biospira, cranked the heater up to 85of, gyre xf250 at 20%.

I tested 5 hours ago.

I’m down to 1ppm ammonia and 0.5ppm nitrite. I plan to test ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at 9pm, and re-dose up to 1ppm.

I’m pretty sure the biospira is working.

An hour after ammonia, but before biospira. Control tank water before ammonia addition on left-

43 hours later- ammonia down, nitrite up

 

[brandon429]

Live rock never needs ammonia added:

 

[User]

Live rock never needs ammonia added:

Sure. But you can still boost the speed of the cycle by adding bottled bacteria.

Also- I’m doing it this way because I have zero live anything in my tank. Not risking bad hitchhikers. All dead rock and dry sand

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/
Live rock is totally complete, full complement

They're just moved among tanks

But for dry rock, agreed fully, bottle bac speeds up. With bottle bac and liquid ammonium chloride I could bring a bucket of red bricks up to 3 ppm cycle within fourteen days, much faster by bottle for sure

 

[User]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/
Live rock is totally complete, full complement

They're just moved among tanks

But for dry rock, agreed fully, bottle bac speeds up. With bottle bac and liquid ammonium chloride I could bring a bucket of red bricks up to 3 ppm cycle within fourteen days, much faster by bottle for sure

I wish you’d mentioned the red bricks before I spent $200 on pukani and reefsaver... [emoji6]

What do you do about the aptaisia polyp on the live rock that you missed because it was deep in a crevice? Or the ich trophont, because the store, or your buddy, doesn’t keep it in a fishless tank and does ich ‘maintenance’ instead of eradication?

 

[lapin]

Being in the final stages of setting up another tank it occurred to me that instead of using the tried and true shrimp method, I began reading of nitrifying bacteria live culture treatments. What is your experience if you have had any using these products and what feedback would you give those looking into it? I will more than likely add a bit of lab grade ammonia and just let the tank cycle with some live rock and a bit of live sand.

Your live rock and live sand will have bacteria all ready growing. There is no harm in adding bacteria in a bottle. YIu should read what each one does. Some have what I call quick n fast bacteria. Some have long term and some have both. Long term is slow growing and is better at processing over the long term while the fast offers a quick response but the effect can be short lived. You need all kinds. There are threads here that explain it in more detail. search for Dr Tims and /or Biospira.

 

[brandon429]

I handle the ich by referring to humblefish threads in fish forum, it shows w fallow and QT prep, and to expect ich everywhere, that it can be prevented.

regarding that aiptasia, we have a plan for that too

we always scape a new tank in an open, accessible way, never as a stack we're hesitant to move

we'd lift out the rock, and stab off the aiptasia with a flat blade screwdriver, damaging some rock area along the way. one pass, gone. outside of tank. we never inject or mess w aiptasia in tank, that's too risky. our way is mean, and works.

 

[User]

I prefer TTM and observation with applicable drug treatments for all new arrivals. Keeps disease out of the DT. I didn’t spend 8 months building a tank to watch it go fallow for 2.5 months every year or so for the sake of doing 6 weeks QT. No intention of running UV like some people do either.

 

[brandon429]

in no way does fallow have to repeat for the dt, its once.

they fallow new additions in a separate tank. they build up the dt without fish using corals and cuc and rocks n sand, decor

then you 76 it in a full running state. you can still feed a fallow tank, pellets aren't giving anyone ich. (not that the bacteria would require feeding at all, for years, we show)


then from there on out, no more ich, before we add hardscapes or animals the other tank gets all the work, the dt just cruises.

your way may be ok too, I don't keep fish I just like to check cycle threads for consistency among the ones we've already collected... all cycles behave the same and follow the same time lines based on a few different types of cycles, outliers we like to give special attention to

I don't like using dry rocks they get too many infestations. I like to skip cycle reefs, using the purplest most expensive live rock the pet store has. we bring home rock, some starter corals, and set the whole thing up. just like when we take apart a tank to move or to clean it, we don't have to recycle for 30 days at that point either, as live rock simply moves around harmlessly only dry rock needs cycling. if it has anemones or bad hitchikers, that's live and gets no ammonia

 

[User]

If you add livestock that hasn’t been sufficiently quarantined, of course you’re going to have to redo fallow on the DT.

There’s no point in making a tank fallow if you don’t then QT -either TTM or drug treatment- to remove ich freeswimmers and trophonts on hard surfaces. This includes snails (76 days) anemones (16 days) shrimp (6 days or until molt), live rock and sand (fallow for 76). Even chaeto needs to be thoroughly washed and kept separate for 16 days (velvet free swimmer stage dies after 15 days of it doesn’t find a host). If your chaeto has pods- then 76 days, since the pod carapace can have trophonts attached.

Not everyone is willing to do this which is why they end up running several fallow periods or dropping out of the hobby altogether.

I understand your approach and think it’s a good one. But my wife doesn’t like a tank without fish, so I TTM and observe while the plumbing gets finished up and I cycle the tank.

What ‘infestations’ do dry rocks get that live rock doesn’t? GHA from leaching phosphate? LC treatment in a tote while you build the system and cycle the tank. What else?

And saying live rock doesn’t need cycling isn’t quite true. Every time you take s piece of live rock out of full submersion, some of the bacteria die off, produce ammonia and then the colony has to repopulate. This is a micro/mini cycle, depending on how pedantic you want to be. If you don’t come from the store with your rock in s tote full of heated saltwater, bacteria die, and cause a cycle. How many stores wrap a lump of rock in paper and put it in a bag after telling the buyer ‘just toss it in the tank and don’t worry about cycling’? Then they wonder why the damsel they bought at the same time dies in 24 hours

 

[Reefapprentice]

So is “DrTims One and Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria” Bong term bacteria as that is what I have been thinking about getting- however this will be a fishless tank thus a small cuc would be added first.

 

[wesman42]

So is “DrTims One and Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria” Bong term bacteria as that is what I have been thinking about getting- however this will be a fishless tank thus a small cuc would be added first.

I believe there's a thread on here somewhere regarding the different types of bacteria in a bottle and which one works the fastest/best.

I used Dr. Tim's in my tank mid-cycle and it finished in just under a week. Given I was in the middle of my nitrite spike - I wanted to see if the bacteria introduced included both types....and sure enough it did.

As for the type of bacteria...I think initially if you move slow, the bacteria in a bottle paves the way for the slower, longer lasting types of bacteria. It can handle fish bio-load quickly, but overdo it and you've got another cycle on your hands.

 

[THX1138CY]

After tank cycling, I battled issues with high nitrates, had zero issues converting larg enough of a bacteria species that could convert nitrate to nitrogen. Bought enough Bio-spira for twice my tank volume, and seeded tank with that, after three days, my nitrates went from 180 ppm to 40 ppm, and I can now easily maintain 5-10 ppm nitrates in a controllable manner. Bio-spira was the only bottled bacteria that directly claims on the bottle that it contains a species that can convert nitrate to nitrogen that I was able to find. I have 170lb's dry rock in the display, 20 lb's of live rock in my refugium.

 

[Brad Vaughn]

I usually start my tanks from dry Rock and Sand. I've used Dr Tims and Fritz 9. I've had several resets over the past two years. I have had more success with Fritz 9 and use it consistently now. I just didn't get the results that Dr Tim's advertised. I haven't found a bacteria product that will instantly cycle a tank but they can reduce it. I usually cycle in about 9 days with Fritz 9. I start the tank with ammonia. I've never used Fritz turbostart since it can be a little more expensive to ship it refrigerated but I would expect good things from it considering the results i have gotten with their other products.

 

[brandon429]

Vs debating microbiology, I provided a huge work thread where we list that and other claims for testing. Tell me which post number is wrong, or which tank died due to faulty prep. If we miss call bacteria in a skip cycle thread, doom results

Moving live rock increases, not decreases, bacteria temporarily. Answer as to why it's opposite of what you are thinking is buried in all that work. I'm simply making a summary to save the long read.

 

[User]

Vs debating microbiology, I provided a huge work thread. Tell me which post number is wrong, or which tank died

Directed at me I assume.

I never said any particular post was wrong. Many different ways to accomplish the same biology.

Source: PhD in microbiology with 20 years research lab experience. I know bacteria.


Edited after I saw your addition: the reason for the increase in bacteria after moving is because the very early stage (30 mins to 6-12 hours) die off frees up colonization space, and excess nutrients, which then feed a population boom. The *first* thing that happens when you move rock is that bacteria die. Up to 20%. This is seen in any substrate with an attached biofilm- environmental, medical, pharmaceutical production. Colonization space opens up, nutrients become available, and in the case of moving rock to a new tank, possibly an excess of nutrients because of increased bioload, *then* the population expands. This second phase is what you are referring to. Typical ‘24 hour’ testing like in a ‘controlled’ ammonia dosing schedule used by hobbyists samples a data point that is too late to catch this. Furthermore, There’s no way outside of a lab setting with artificial media and repeated sampling to determine exactly how much die off and therefore ammonia is produced, but I do know it’s below the limit of detection of commercial available colorimetric test kits.

 

[squampton]

Live rock never needs ammonia added:

Only if you can obtain it, well obtain live rock with more life on it than just bacteria.

 

[brandon429]

I go off coralline mainly, once I see lr with coralline we stamp that as cycled since its not possible to have coralline in place without nitrifying bacteria

(I know some people in challenge say what about medication, yes, that would do it but it never applies. nobody on this site ever bought sterile live rock with moving animals on it, or coralline, but with dead bacteria from a move or any other event. it was live, and where goes real coralline goes other benthic verifiers to back up the coralline etc)

we're all about visually cycling tanks and not using testers there. And when we do test, its ammonia only, not ever nitrate nor nitrite because those don't factor in marine cycles, even with dry materials, for reasons listed.


we cover in our thread that adding ammonia to live rock with coralline, pods, sponges, algae, clear life in tow doesn't ruin it, it can digest it. We stamp it as a sign of not understanding how cycling works though, and by extension how tank cleaning and invasion works.

we figure if people can't start off knowing when to add ammonia and when not to, then they're about 98% likely to lose the tank to an overall invasion at one point since our care and cleaning parameters are fully governed by how we perceive bacteria. If we perceive them as weak, easily killed off in a move for example, then we can't clean out those invasive dinos upon immediate detection, or that cyano. We'd have to farm it on purpose for months until the tank is taken over, out of fear about destabilization.

But if we trust bacteria, then we can produce twelve page sand rinse threads where nobodys invasion wins:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/page-15
since there are definitely live rocks housed in vats that are fully cured, and might be without coralline or the associated animals like fanworms, pods, algae and some sponges, then yes we think its ok to test those rocks with ammonia to prove they are cycled since there are no small life forms who are stressed by free ammonia.

we think adding ammonia to clearly live rock accomplishes nothing and no verification was ever needed using ammonia if we had the living organisms to go by.
we doubt that most low level ammonia test kits will be interpreted accurately, and from that will come more doubt about bacteria.

 

[Skep18]

It's not voodoo or magic. Getting a bacteria starter culture for fish tanks is like making a yeast starter for homebrewing. You could let the natural cave yeasts float into your wort... Or you could just inoculate it with the correct yeast.

BioSpira and others are cheap and they work.