Velvet treatment - alternative

Mariette · Mar 10, 2019

help!!! I’ve got Velvet and my banded goby’s not handling copper. I don’t have access to CP. what do I dooooooo?!? I have 1st dose of copper 4 hrs ago and he’s already floating near top of waterline w mouth opening/closing/gaping. He was acting fine till I dosed.

ngoodermuth · Mar 10, 2019

What is the copper level in the tank now? What kind of copper are you using and how are you testing it?

Frtdrmrose7 · Mar 10, 2019

Mariette said:
help!!! I’ve got Velvet and my banded goby’s not handling copper. I don’t have access to CP. what do I dooooooo?!? I have 1st dose of copper 4 hrs ago and he’s already floating near top of waterline w mouth opening/closing/gaping. He was acting fine till I dosed.

How much did you dose and what type of copper. Typically you want to ramp up copper to therapeutic levels over 48-72 hours unless it’s an emergency then you can move faster.

Mariette · Mar 10, 2019

Using Cupramine from seachem. Full therapeutic level is 0.5 reached in 2 doses given 2 days apart. I dosed as directed but, when I tested, copper level had reached the full therapeutic level at 1st dose. I don’t know how that could have happened. I made all measurements very carefully. Anyway, I did a water change and retested copper. It’s now down to 0.2 which is where I’m assuming a half dose should be. Goby is doing better but not great. He’s still spending most of his time near the top but he’s also swimming around and hanging out near the bottom sometimes. I just fed him and he ate well. Fingers crossed.

Frtdrmrose7 · Mar 10, 2019

Do you have a airstone or powerhead pointed at the surface? Velvet attacks the gills and inhibits the fish’s ability to breathe. You should maximize gas exchange to aerate the tank as much as possible

4FordFamily · Mar 10, 2019

Cupramine is a bit more harsh than chelated copper. The narrow band of ideal therapeutic range (.45-.55) and the difficulty of testing with color charts (use Hanna copper checker for copper checking instead is m recommendation) make it not the most ideal option.

What is the goby doing?

Often by the time we treat velvet the gills are so badly damaged that it won’t survibe treatment of any kind, unfortunately.

Mariette · Mar 10, 2019

Frtdrmrose7 said:
Do you have a airstone or powerhead pointed at the surface? Velvet attacks the gills and inhibits the fish’s ability to breathe. You should maximize gas exchange to aerate the tank as much as possible

Yes. There’s a filter moving water around and an air stone. I noticed an improvement a few hrs after airstone added

Mariette · Mar 10, 2019

4FordFamily said:
Cupramine is a bit more harsh than chelated copper. The narrow band of ideal therapeutic range (.45-.55) and the difficulty of testing with color charts (use Hanna copper checker for copper checking instead is m recommendation) make it not the most ideal option.

What is the goby doing?

Often by the time we treat velvet the gills are so badly damaged that it won’t survibe treatment of any kind, unfortunately.

Don’t get me started!!! Goby’s acting ok one minute and not the next. Hanging out at top, which is Onviously not like him, but then comes back down. Moving and eating same as before. Rapid breathing has dissipated. No more mouth gaping.

Long history w this bout of Velvet: initially infected in December. Treated early w Medic by PolypLab. Everyone thrived. No loss of life. I was thrilled. But, a few weeks after treatment ended, symptoms reappeared. So I contacted PolypLab and they told me to run double dose for 20 days. But it seems just to be managing the Velvet and not curing it. So we decided to go with copper. From the beginning, Goby has been mostly fine. Minor flashing, head shaking, hanging out at top when velevt first came in. But he’s been fine until I hit him w the copper.

4FordFamily · Mar 10, 2019

Well based on your storyline velvet has been attacking the gills for about three months. It’s no surprise the fish is struggling

4FordFamily · Mar 10, 2019

Also do you have an air stone and a powerhead breaking the surface? Velvet renders gills nearly useless in short order so they cannot breathe. These things with add oxygen to the water.

HotRocks · Mar 10, 2019

Mariette said:
Don’t get me started!!! Goby’s acting ok one minute and not the next. Hanging out at top, which is Onviously not like him, but then comes back down. Moving and eating same as before. Rapid breathing has dissipated. No more mouth gaping.

Long history w this bout of Velvet: initially infected in December. Treated early w Medic by PolypLab. Everyone thrived. No loss of life. I was thrilled. But, a few weeks after treatment ended, symptoms reappeared. So I contacted PolypLab and they told me to run double dose for 20 days. But it seems just to be managing the Velvet and not curing it. So we decided to go with copper. From the beginning, Goby has been mostly fine. Minor flashing, head shaking, hanging out at top when velevt first came in. But he’s been fine until I hit him w the copper.

Copper is an immunosuppressant, so if this fish has been fighting velvet for 90ish days then it's not a surprise that it is struggling.

Oxygenation is also key here. Which is why we recommend a powerhead aimed upward breaking the surface tension of the water. This allows ample oxygen in the water column as it's definitely necessary for a fish with damaged gills.

Copper also depletes oxygen faster than normal, so the combination of this and Gill damage are hard on the fish. It's necessary IMO to erradicate velvet, copper is the lesser of two evils.

Mariette · Mar 10, 2019

4FordFamily said:
Also do you have an air stone and a powerhead breaking the surface? Velvet renders gills nearly useless in short order so they cannot breathe. These things with add oxygen to the water.

Yes I do. Thanks for checking

Mariette · Mar 10, 2019

4FordFamily said:
Well based on your storyline velvet has been attacking the gills for about three months. It’s no surprise the fish is struggling

I know right? But the strange thing is this: when he first got Velvet in January (I know I said December earlier. I was mistaken. Sorry), he showed mild symptoms. I treated right away and he’s been fine ever since. Issues with him didn’t start until 4 hrs after I dosed copper and dissipated almost immediately after a water change to dilute the copper. This is giving me some hope. Am I being naive?

Mariette · Mar 10, 2019

HotRocks said:
Copper is an immunosuppressant, so if this fish has been fighting velvet for 90ish days then it's not a surprise that it is struggling.

Oxygenation is also key here. Which is why we recommend a powerhead aimed upward breaking the surface tension of the water. This allows ample oxygen in the water column as it's definitely necessary for a fish with damaged gills.

Copper also depletes oxygen faster than normal, so the combination of this and Gill damage are hard on the fish. It's necessary IMO to erradicate velvet, copper is the lesser of two evils.

Ahhhh!!!! My power head isn’t aimed upward!!!!! I’ll go do that right now. Thanks!!!!

Also worth noting that he’s in the same boat w 3 other fish (coral beauty, yellowtale damsel, and watchman goby) all of whom appear to be doing great. Also worth noting that, for the most part, the Velvet was managed by the Medic. Just didn’t wipe it out. My theory is that if fought it off the fish and killed most of it. So all appeared well until the surviving parasites had a chance to repopulate and come back for round 2

Frtdrmrose7 · Mar 11, 2019

Mariette said:
Ahhhh!!!! My power head isn’t aimed upward!!!!! I’ll go do that right now. Thanks!!!!

Also worth noting that he’s in the same boat w 3 other fish (coral beauty, yellowtale damsel, and watchman goby) all of whom appear to be doing great. Also worth noting that, for the most part, the Velvet was managed by the Medic. Just didn’t wipe it out. My theory is that if fought it off the fish and killed most of it. So all appeared well until the surviving parasites had a chance to repopulate and come back for round 2

The goby has probably always showed the least amount of symptoms (visible ones) because of his slime coat but Velvet has probably been at work in his gills the whole time.

Mariette · Mar 11, 2019

Frtdrmrose7 said:
The goby has probably always showed the least amount of symptoms (visible ones) because of his slime coat but Velvet has probably been at work in his gills the whole time.

That’s discouraging. I’m really hoping he’ll pull through. He’s not looking great this morning. He’s at the bottom but he’s just laying there

miyags · Mar 11, 2019

Ammonia ? are all fish in QT?.Leave Main tank fishless for 76days.

Frtdrmrose7 · Mar 11, 2019

miyags said:
Ammonia ? are all fish in QT?.Leave Main tank fishless for 76days.

For velvet the fallow period is 6 weeks but if you choose to do 76 you’ll ensure to eradicate ich if you think it might be in there.

Gareth elliott · Mar 11, 2019

^great advice above
Only want to add that with gill damage a supportive med to try is a 30 minute bath in methylene blue. Does 3 things, first will increases hemoglobin, next is antiseptic so will help if there is a secondary infection, lastly has slight antiparasitic properties(wont cure it but wont hurt if this bath is done during parasite treatment).

Is also rather gentle on fish.

Use a container you dont mind ruining as it will dye it blue.

miyags · Mar 11, 2019

Most don't know the difference between Ich and velvet.Looking a pictures on goggle doesn't cut it.Seen same picture ID both.Usually velvet kills fish before they even start a treatment