Vendor transparency question

[MnFish1]

Interesting to know.
And just to clarify so no one gets me wrong...as the owner/operator of a private business, it is totally within your rights to share as much or as little with clients as you wish. I will always respect that. However, not sharing certain information can make one suspicious. For instance, if an LFS owner wouldn't even tell me his first name, that would be well within his rights to do. However, I would definitely raise an eyebrow at that. Likewise, I would never expect him to share his profit margins with me, and wouldn't dare ask. So, that's what I was getting at finding out via this thread--is not sharing supplier information akin to the former or the latter, is it normal level of privacy or suspicious level of secrecy. It looks like there are answers on both ends of the aisle at the moment.

IMHO - its none of your business where he buys his fish. Now - whether they're in copper, QT'd, etc etc etc - that is fair game. IMHO

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yeah, that's a more extreme example, though. Asking for straight up numbers behind the store's back is totally not ok. I would never dream of asking for margins details or anything like that. To me, as someone not in the business, asking for a supplier's name seemed as innocent as asking what brand a particular dry good is. I have learned more intricacies of the situation through this thread, which has been helpful.

Its like asking: WHAT AM I PAYING OVER WHAT YOU PAID ??

 

[drstardust]

IMHO - its none of your business where he buys his fish. Now - whether they're in copper, QT'd, etc etc etc - that is fair game. IMHO

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Others on this thread disagree, and it has created good discussion.

 

[Wrangy]

I have to agree with @MnFish1 on this topic. Asking a store where they get their dry goods, fish or coral from really isn't anyone's business but they're own. Asking for where they've come from geologically is fine but asking for suppliers and wholesalers really is inappropriate. You wouldn't walk into a big box store (non-aquarium) and ask who supplies them with their goods.

Given how lucrative, petty and fickle this hobby is makes this an even more delicate subject for a lot of people and stores, especially if a store doesn't know who you are. I'm not sure of your relationship with the store but if someone I didn't know very well asked me where I bought my goods from there would simply be no way I'd divulge any info to that person. Now on the other hand, I'm really close friends with the owner of my lfs so I get a very large amount of insight into where things come from and can ask which supplier something has come from but there are even secrets that he doesn't tell me and this is no issue because I trust him.

Personally, I find the question of where they get their stock from on a similar level of personal information such as asking them how much they earn in a year. If you have the rapport with the store that you could ask where things are coming from that's fine but aside from that, it's not even a question that crosses my mind. If things are happy and healthy, what does it matter anyway

Just my 10cents worth, a little passive aggressive I realise but I tend to feel strongly about certain things and this is one of them.

 

[K7BMG]

None of this matters.
There used to be ethic's in business and now isn't any.

In my industry Electrical contracting, the wholesale houses would never sell parts to non contractors, EVER.

The contractors still get various discounts depending on the amount of business they did and how well they paid there bills.

Now anyone can walk into the wholesale house and buy materials at the same price I can on most everything but specialized items.
Yes I get a slight discount on the material over a non contractor, but that means nothing when I have to order, pick up and deliver.

The same goes with anything that's for sale today.

 

[NYAquatic]

Agreed

I think it's the opposite of the initial opinions.
It's 100% none of your business where we get our fish (other than what ocean, for Regal angels lets say, and wild vs captive)
Who our suppliers are is 100% classified information.
Anyone who would freely share that info is, IMHO, either lying, or doesn't have any worthwhile suppliers.
In this business (and I imagine true for most) quality suppliers are the life blood. Why would I want that information getting out?
Ultimately, except for very basic fish, We are essentially competing with other suppliers to find and acquire quality livestock.
Why would we want to increase competition to get the fish we want.

And, unfortunately, most wholesalers these days will sell to anyone who puts in even a little effort
Luckily, we import are own so don't get involved with that.

Just my $.02

 

[drstardust]

I have to agree with @MnFish1 on this topic. Asking a store where they get their dry goods, fish or coral from really isn't anyone's business but they're own. Asking for where they've come from geologically is fine but asking for suppliers and wholesalers really is inappropriate. You wouldn't walk into a big box store (non-aquarium) and ask who supplies them with their goods.

Given how lucrative, petty and fickle this hobby is makes this an even more delicate subject for a lot of people and stores, especially if a store doesn't know who you are. I'm not sure of your relationship with the store but if someone I didn't know very well asked me where I bought my goods from there would simply be no way I'd divulge any info to that person. Now on the other hand, I'm really close friends with the owner of my lfs so I get a very large amount of insight into where things come from and can ask which supplier something has come from but there are even secrets that he doesn't tell me and this is no issue because I trust him.

Personally, I find the question of where they get their stock from on a similar level of personal information such as asking them how much they earn in a year. If you have the rapport with the store that you could ask where things are coming from that's fine but aside from that, it's not even a question that crosses my mind. If things are happy and healthy, what does it matter anyway

Just my 10cents worth, a little passive aggressive I realise but I tend to feel strongly about certain things and this is one of them.

That’s cool, man no worries and thanks for your thoughts

 

[drstardust]

Agreed

I think it's the opposite of the initial opinions.
It's 100% none of your business where we get our fish (other than what ocean, for Regal angels lets say, and wild vs captive)
Who our suppliers are is 100% classified information.
Anyone who would freely share that info is, IMHO, either lying, or doesn't have any worthwhile suppliers.
In this business (and I imagine true for most) quality suppliers are the life blood. Why would I want that information getting out?
Ultimately, except for very basic fish, We are essentially competing with other suppliers to find and acquire quality livestock.
Why would we want to increase competition to get the fish we want.

And, unfortunately, most wholesalers these days will sell to anyone who puts in even a little effort
Luckily, we import are own so don't get involved with that.

Just my $.02

Thanks for your input, appreciated.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I would never share my supplier information with anyone except the buyer of my business! With all the overhead expenses you would have no idea what to do with the purchase price of the fish. It cost money to order, ship, acclimate, replace water, medicate when necessary, not to mention all the other expenses. This is a business not a hobby and no one pays you for just showing up.

 

[drstardust]

Sounds like the opinion is quite prevalent. This is good to know.



Now, to provide some more detail, I didn’t even ask for the supplier directly, at all. My exact words were “do you always use the same supplier, or different ones?” Whether that was taken as a direct question that was cloaked, maybe. Who knows. But yes, I was only asking that out of innocent curiosity. I wish I were interesting enough to have more elaborate intentions, but I’m not. I have no plans to enter this industry in any way. He had no way of knowing that of course, but would not even provide a vague answer to a vague question. Shrug.

 

[Crashjack]

I think asking a LFS which livestock supplier they use is totally legit. If I felt like certain suppliers had good reputations and others had bad reputations, I would want to know. Maybe one wholesaler has less stringent requirements and often gets cyanide caught fish while another’s stricter requirements keeps them from dealing in cyanide caught fish. Maybe one supplier has better shipping practices than another. At the end of the day, the end-customer is paying good money for livestock they want to keep alive. If they feel that buying from stores that use certain suppliers helps their odds, then it is a very fair question.

 

[Wrangy]

Sounds like the opinion is quite prevalent. This is good to know.



Now, to provide some more detail, I didn’t even ask for the supplier directly, at all. My exact words were “do you always use the same supplier, or different ones?” Whether that was taken as a direct question that was cloaked, maybe. Who knows. But yes, I was only asking that out of innocent curiosity. I wish I were interesting enough to have more elaborate intentions, but I’m not. I have no plans to enter this industry in any way. He had no way of knowing that of course, but would not even provide a vague answer to a vague question. Shrug.

That's a different question entirely though haha and fair enough to ask I think still a bit iffy but a much more appropriate than who

 

[drstardust]

That's a different question entirely though haha and fair enough to ask I think still a bit iffy but a much more appropriate than who

Indeed, it’s a different type of question, and I expect to get some hate for not saying this from the start, but it has generated some very interesting discussion so I have no regrets

 

[SciGuy2]

It seems that a significant number of the people who get very serious about the hobby want to one day go into the business. I can't blame the vendor for not trying to set up a possible competitor.

 

[MnFish1]

As far as asking for vendors (wholesalers) I would say 90% of my stores would say where they got both live goods and dry goods

It might be interesting if you asked all of the stores you get their stuff from and see if 90 % answer you. To me a bigger question is 'why would you care'? What would be the reason anyone would care 'where' dry goods were shipped from? For example - in our area we're close to a major online reef company - nearly all of the stores sell their branded items (which can also be bought online). Not everyone that comes into the store might know this however. Its an interesting discussion as to whether someone should or shouldn't answer the question - I've asked a couple times 'why would you want to know? (Unless its to try to undercut the pricing of the LFS 0r you're a competitor who might be getting a worse deal from your wholesaler, etc, etc etc) - Though there are some other reasons that are innocuous - I still don't get why it would matter to the consumer - unless its going to be to the detriment of the LFS.

 

[MnFish1]

Honestly, unless you plan to open a competing business, there is no real reason they shouldn't be transparent about where the livestock comes from. Getting wholesale account is not exactly easy in most cases and requires quite a bit of hoops be jumped through. Many wholesalers have minimums or higher rates for non-brick & mortar service businesses or online sellers. Transshipping has an even higher barrier to entry, if nothing else due to the cost and size of orders and dealing with Fish & Wildlife...

Its actually very easy. You want an aquarium - you have a home based business. You merely order your supplies from a wholesaler with your Tax ID and letterhead (that's usually whats required). Some wholesalers require that you purchase a certain amount - but not all. If you plan to resell the items you buy - then you need to jump through a lot of hoops. If you plan to use the items for your 'business' it is not as difficult.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

There are really no secrets in this business and unless you are a gigantic facility there aren't many truly exclusive suppliers, so other folks already know anyway. I can ask a supplier from anywhere in the world who they sell to and pretty much know who are my competitors. In 20 years of running my facility the only folks that have asked about suppliers are those looking to set up their own business. The name of a supplier is actually irrelevant. For anyone intimately involved in the industry you can look at the stock and pretty much know where and who its coming from.

I have no problem sharing names of suppliers. The name of the supplier is easy to get, even if you import directly those documents are public knowledge if you wish to dig. The important factors are the relationship with that supplier, how you handle the stock, and how you service your customers. Knowing the name of a supplier won't help you know the quality of their stock unless you have been there yourself. You won't know if they use cyanide or mishandle corals or collect irresponsibly unless you've seen for yourself. Anyone can tell you anything and in this industry you must treat everything as suspect unless you verified it in person.

If someone is trying to set up their own business, asking a vendor for the name of their supplier shows me they are either dumb or lazy, probably both. They haven't done their homework and will dump their life savings into their dream of making millions selling fish and corals and likely be out within a couple years.

Many suppliers sell to hobbyists and that use to bother me, but there's nothing I can do about that so why get your blood pressure up. Many of the major wholesalers in the US have retail sites under a different name and sell from their tanks direct to hobbyists. At times there have even been collectors in other countries that set up sites and sold direct. Prices are cheap, they offer a huge selection, and will gladly ship you a fish or coral that arrived that morning from some far off reef.

Walking into your LFS and asking who their supplier is won't really tell you much and will likely cause the owner to think you have other motives. The way the store looks, if its clean and organized, the way they treat you, and the health and quality of their stock will tell you everything you need to know.

Think of it this way.....If you walk into a bakery shop you quickly determine if it's clean and has that delightful smell of fresh baked goods and the cases are filled with yummy things and they greet you with a smile and are thrilled you are there--you don't ask them where they buy their flour....understand?

 

[MnFish1]

Indeed, it’s a different type of question, and I expect to get some hate for not saying this from the start, but it has generated some very interesting discussion so I have no regrets

No one should 'give you hate' - but I will give you a question (again)... Why were you asking? And per your OP - it sounds like this is a routine question you ask (since you say its the first time you have not been given the answer? In your OP you also said you wanted to know where they 'sourced their fish, which wholesaler, etc). What was the 'etc?'

Im not asking this to pick on you - but because its important to how I would answer your original question: Example if you said - Hi I'm new to your store I used to shop at xxxx but recently found out they are using fish caught with cyanide (assuming the new store wasn't) - you might get a different answer than if you said 'Hi - just curious where do you get your fish?'

As many have said no matter what you asked or why - they aren't obligated to tell you - and you aren't obligated to buy there. At my LFS, for example - they get shipments directly from Christmas Island, etc. They go through all of their isolation processes with me. But if I asked for the name of the person that they get their fish from - there is no way (I don't think) that they would give it to me - though we have a great relationship.

Main point - especially given what others have said - I wouldn't assume that there is anything 'shady' going on. (ie. tang trafficking, etc

 

[drstardust]

There are really no secrets in this business and unless you are a gigantic facility there aren't many truly exclusive suppliers, so other folks already know anyway. I can ask a supplier from anywhere in the world who they sell to and pretty much know who are my competitors. In 20 years of running my facility the only folks that have asked about suppliers are those looking to set up their own business. The name of a supplier is actually irrelevant. For anyone intimately involved in the industry you can look at the stock and pretty much know where and who its coming from.

I have no problem sharing names of suppliers. The name of the supplier is easy to get, even if you import directly those documents are public knowledge if you wish to dig. The important factors are the relationship with that supplier, how you handle the stock, and how you service your customers. Knowing the name of a supplier won't help you know the quality of their stock unless you have been there yourself. You won't know if they use cyanide or mishandle corals or collect irresponsibly unless you've seen for yourself. Anyone can tell you anything and in this industry you must treat everything as suspect unless you verified it in person.

If someone is trying to set up their own business, asking a vendor for the name of their supplier shows me they are either dumb or lazy, probably both. They haven't done their homework and will dump their life savings into their dream of making millions selling fish and corals and likely be out within a couple years.

Many suppliers sell to hobbyists and that use to bother me, but there's nothing I can do about that so why get your blood pressure up. Many of the major wholesalers in the US have retail sites under a different name and sell from their tanks direct to hobbyists. At times there have even been collectors in other countries that set up sites and sold direct. Prices are cheap, they offer a huge selection, and will gladly ship you a fish or coral that arrived that morning from some far off reef.

Walking into your LFS and asking who their supplier is won't really tell you much and will likely cause the owner to think you have other motives. The way the store looks, if its clean and organized, the way they treat you, and the health and quality of their stock will tell you everything you need to know.

Think of it this way.....If you walk into a bakery shop you quickly determine if it's clean and has that delightful smell of fresh baked goods and the cases are filled with yummy things and they greet you with a smile and are thrilled you are there--you don't ask them where they buy their flour....understand?

Thank you for your input. Your insight is valuable. You assumed I was referring to an LFS, which I never explicitly stated (intentionally, to get a variety of possible responses). So your bit about a nice looking store and the bakery analogy would not work for another setting (online vendor), though this is indeed appropriate for the LFS setting. Regardless, your initial comments regarding suppliers selling to hobbyists is something I had not known about when starting this thread, and have since learned.

 

[drstardust]

No one should 'give you hate' - but I will give you a question (again)... Why were you asking? And per your OP - it sounds like this is a routine question you ask (since you say its the first time you have not been given the answer? In your OP you also said you wanted to know where they 'sourced their fish, which wholesaler, etc). What was the 'etc?'

Im not asking this to pick on you - but because its important to how I would answer your original question: Example if you said - Hi I'm new to your store I used to shop at xxxx but recently found out they are using fish caught with cyanide (assuming the new store wasn't) - you might get a different answer than if you said 'Hi - just curious where do you get your fish?'

As many have said no matter what you asked or why - they aren't obligated to tell you - and you aren't obligated to buy there. At my LFS, for example - they get shipments directly from Christmas Island, etc. They go through all of their isolation processes with me. But if I asked for the name of the person that they get their fish from - there is no way (I don't think) that they would give it to me - though we have a great relationship.

Main point - especially given what others have said - I wouldn't assume that there is anything 'shady' going on. (ie. tang trafficking, etc

I feel that I’ve answered these questions in this thread if you read my prior posts. One thing i will say is that you must have misread the OP. this is not something I routinely ask. As I mentioned in the first post, this is the first time I asked it, hence I had no basis of comparison. As I mentioned previously, I didn’t even ask for details. What I -think- you may be specifically wondering is whether I had some uncertainties about this vendor. And the answer is yes lol. Hence wondering if this is shady or normal. The prevailing answer seems to be that it’s normal though there is some variability. I am satisfied with the answers I have received and what I’ve learned about the process. Thanks to all who have contributed. I think we can call it a day with this topic, but feel free to share further thoughts/experiences/opinions if you wish.