Warning: Use Vibrant at your own risk

[LRT]

Perhaps I’ve missed the “blame BRS train”. I’ve not seen any of it on this thread.

Good because it is completely out of line and not justified here

Or the other thread for that matter. Just voicing my opinion.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Good because it is completely out of line and not justified here

Or the other thread for that matter. Just voicing my opinion.

I think people are a little salty (hah) that brs built of years of trust and lately has been playing a lil fast and loose with that and not doing real research before letting vendors use them as a trusted preaching platform.

Lots of brands eventually do this from craftsman to Homedepot to Samsung and LG.
I’m not saying anything with it one way or the other but this is part of why you gotta remember businesses are not your friend.

 

[Lyss]

Can someone explain to me why in this video previously posted in this thread, at around the 20 mark, Ryan speaks to the vagueness of the product label and then says some brief bit about cyano remedies not being able to say they remove cyano on the label (ex: red slime remover) b/c of epa not letting them/regulation?


It was my understanding that the epa regulates pesticides. So that just sounds to me like some companies that may be selling a pesticide don’t want to say it to avoid epa regulation. Here’s what the epa says about regulation of pesticides:

“Except in limited circumstances, any substance falling within this definition of a pesticide must be registered by the EPA before it can be legally sold or distributed in the United States.”

What is a Pesticide? | US EPA

Learn about the definition of pesticide, which in broad terms is a product that claims to kill, prevent, reduce, destroy or repel a pest.

www.epa.gov

 

[LRT]

I think people are a little salty (hah) that brs built of years of trust and lately has been playing a lil fast and loose with that and not doing real research before letting vendors use them as a trusted preaching platform.

Lots of brands eventually do this from craftsman to Homedepot to Samsung and LG.
I’m not saying anything with it one way or the other but this is part of why you gotta remember businesses are not your friend.

Absoloutely "salty" and couldn't be more fitting in a reef forum lol.

I'm actually kinda glad for BRS in this instance. They likely hold the most weight and have the most reach and feel like they are doing the right thing here and thats more than ive ever seen from any of those other companies mentioned. He did mention NMR testing and wouldn't be surprised of they do a bunch more of that and other testing of some products moving forward. From a business standpoint Im positive they don't want to go through something like this again.

 

[rtparty]

It's so weird that BRS continues to be called out more on this thread than UWC.

Isn't it crazy???

I think people are a little salty (hah) that brs built of years of trust and lately has been playing a lil fast and loose with that and not doing real research before letting vendors use them as a trusted preaching platform.

Lots of brands eventually do this from craftsman to Homedepot to Samsung and LG.
I’m not saying anything with it one way or the other but this is part of why you gotta remember businesses are not your friend.

Explain where BRS (or EVERY OTHER VENDOR) didn't do "real research" before selling Vibrant?

Do we really expect these vendors to send off ICP-MS, NMR, LOL, ABQ, NYC tests (last few are made up for fun) on every single product they sell??

Does Walmart send off every type of milk they carry to be third party tested to make sure it's actually milk? Should we really expect that out of a few small hobby retailers? Why not go after SWA or Premium or Aqucave or *insert company name here* for not testing every single product they've ever sold?

Why not hold Amazon accountable seeming that have likely sold more Vibrant than anyone else? I mean everyone wants to support Amazon (who has absolutely no interest in our hobby) when they can beat BRS, SWA, PA, and others by a few bucks. Why aren't they in here responding? Talk about playing fast and loose.

To my knowledge, BRS was the last (or close to last) major retailer to bring in Vibrant. They talked about being hesitant and not just trusting it was magic in a bottle. They trusted the manufacturer just like we all do every single day. Then they even investigated it more than anyone else had up to that point. We can all Monday morning quarterback this and say "they should have done this or should have done that" but no one was calling for that level of testing. Silver lining is we, as hobbyists, can ask for this going forward. Then vote with our dollars by supporting those that support us.

I have no idea what an NMR test cost but BRS has shown they will pay for these type of tests. Manufacturers would be very hesitant to ever cheat the system again if they knew we demanded this level of self regulation.

Sorry for the novel and thanks to those who made it this far.

 

[a.t.t.r]

I think people are a little salty (hah) that brs built of years of trust and lately has been playing a lil fast and loose with that and not doing real research before letting vendors use them as a trusted preaching platform.

Lots of brands eventually do this from craftsman to Homedepot to Samsung and LG

Isn't it crazy???



Explain where BRS (or EVERY OTHER VENDOR) didn't do "real research" before selling Vibrant?

Do we really expect these vendors to send off ICP-MS, NMR, LOL, ABQ, NYC tests (last few are made up for fun) on every single product they sell??

Does Walmart send off every type of milk they carry to be third party tested to make sure it's actually milk? Should we really expect that out of a few small hobby retailers? Why not go after SWA or Premium or Aqucave or *insert company name here* for not testing every single product they've ever sold?

Why not hold Amazon accountable seeming that have likely sold more Vibrant than anyone else? I mean everyone wants to support Amazon (who has absolutely no interest in our hobby) when they can beat BRS, SWA, PA, and others by a few bucks. Why aren't they in here responding? Talk about playing fast and loose.

To my knowledge, BRS was the last (or close to last) major retailer to bring in Vibrant. They talked about being hesitant and not just trusting it was magic in a bottle. They trusted the manufacturer just like we all do every single day. Then they even investigated it more than anyone else had up to that point. We can all Monday morning quarterback this and say "they should have done this or should have done that" but no one was calling for that level of testing. Silver lining is we, as hobbyists, can ask for this going forward. Then vote with our dollars by supporting those that support us.

I have no idea what an NMR test cost but BRS has shown they will pay for these type of tests. Manufacturers would be very hesitant to ever cheat the system again if they knew we demanded this level of self regulation.

Sorry for the novel and thanks to those who made it this far.

There is a huge difference between putting a product on your site and making videos under the veil of education promoting a product.

bulk reef supply has been built off of this idea of come here for the education and buy the products while you’re here. So yes if they independently make a video they should be doing thorough research into it or use language showing what is still unclear. I’m not one who is upset at them at all. I think they’re just as much victims as anyone else to the lies they just happen to have a platform that allowed the propagation of the lies to easily spread and maybe this will make them slow down a little bit in the future.

 

[MnFish1]

Tempest in a teapot. Everyone can debate the legal, moral, etc things. -but - perhaps some have a long-standing thing - idk. If you dont want to buy vibrant - dont buy it lol. Read the evidence - decide - and buy or not buy.

 

[saltyfins]

Thanks Randy, this is getting real interesting to say the least.. I used vibrant before and have follwed the link thread...I watched my nutrients, let's just say i threw out the 3/4 full bottle...

same!

 

[LRT]

Id personally like to see more data on possible dangers these chemicals pose to our critters. In my untrained brain it doesn't feel like Zooxanthellae and other beneficial algaes and Algecide coexist together. Neither does Molluscide and clams.

 

[mdb_talon]

Completely unrelated, but the banner ad on R2R for Vibrant that keeps popping up is kind of ironic...

Haha i keep getting ads on unrelated websites for vibrant. I guess i typed it too many times.

Hating on BRS is the hipster thing to do these days.

Haha i hated BRS before it was cool, but i agree it did nothing wrong here and if anything the fact they do test so many products(including this one) is to their credit.

 

[jpas]

Class action lawsuit against UWC for all Vibrant user that have suffered loss???

 

[Lyss]

Can someone explain to me why in this video previously posted in this thread, at around the 20 mark, Ryan speaks to the vagueness of the product label and then says some brief bit about cyano remedies not being able to say they remove cyano on the label (ex: red slime remover) b/c of epa not letting them/regulation?


It was my understanding that the epa regulates pesticides. So that just sounds to me like some companies that may be selling a pesticide don’t want to say it to avoid epa regulation. Here’s what the epa says about regulation of pesticides:

“Except in limited circumstances, any substance falling within this definition of a pesticide must be registered by the EPA before it can be legally sold or distributed in the United States.”

What is a Pesticide? | US EPA

Learn about the definition of pesticide, which in broad terms is a product that claims to kill, prevent, reduce, destroy or repel a pest.

www.epa.gov

This was a genuine question. When I heard that, a red flag went up for me personally. This is a different issue, and it appears a broad one with some manufacturers of pesticides, I am guessing Vibrant being one based on what I pointed out is said in this video.

I did some searching and found public records of epa documents where AlgaeFix is registered — hence the clear labeling and warnings on the label. I also found public records of litigation against another manufacturer who sells a popular pesticide for use in hobbyist tanks, for failure to register that product, including such violations as mislabeling and failing to list ingredients.

I just really wanna know that even beyond the potential false claims made that this discussion centers around, that in general the products we’re being sold are being sold to us legally. I mean, if you want to sell a pesticide, register it with the epa so it’s legal, and tell us what it really is.

 

[JimWelsh]

I just really wanna know that even beyond the potential false claims made that this discussion centers around, that in general the products we’re being sold are being sold to us legally. I mean, if you want to sell a pesticide, register it with the epa so it’s legal, and tell us what it really is.

They claimed in this post that they approached the EPA, who wasn't interested:

My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

Again, correct me if I'm wrong. There are different QACs with different alkyl or aryl groups. Hypothetically, if the type of QAC is different, they may have different COD while having similar quat reactions. Yes, it is mathematically possible that all the stars could align in such a way...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Lyss]

They claimed in this post that they approached the EPA, who wasn't interested:

My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

Again, correct me if I'm wrong. There are different QACs with different alkyl or aryl groups. Hypothetically, if the type of QAC is different, they may have different COD while having similar quat reactions. Yes, it is mathematically possible that all the stars could align in such a way...

www.reef2reef.com

Lol chemiclean was the one I found the litigation record for. That was from 2012. You can look this stuff up online, I mean. Idk what to say other than it just looks weird to me. What it would appear to be is they’re getting around regulation with the vagueness around what the product is and does.

 

[Brian_68]

I was thinking BRS’ lawyers hadn’t approved but didn’t want to outright say it

I just thought it odd b/c seems weird to me to go to the trouble of making and then posting it but not run it by the lawyers first, and then have to pull it. Hadn’t thought of UWC layers asking for it to be removed tho.

I was wondering the same with this tread, and accusations, perhaps true but.....

 

[Brian_68]

Interesting read on the EPA enforcement of pesticides for algae control in aquariums, a bit dated but relevant.

Document Display | NEPIS | US EPA

nepis.epa.gov

And this is regarding labeling and discussion with the EPA for AlgaeFix:

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/008709-00008-20180613.pdf

 

[areefer01]

Read the evidence - decide - and buy or not buy.

Read the label first. But herein lies the crux of the first problem.

As to the rest of the noise it comes down to anecdotal evidence, situational testing, and a lot of social media and small business content.

 

[drawman]

If UWC is involved in any way, then it is not independent at all. I could put some macrobacter, RO water, vinegar and vitamin C in a Vibrant Bottle and send it to a lab and call it independent.

If they really care, then BRS should do this themselves with bottles that they got before all of this began.

100% this.

 

[MnFish1]

Read the label first. But herein lies the crux of the first problem.

As to the rest of the noise it comes down to anecdotal evidence, situational testing, and a lot of social media and small business content.

My comment - the thread could have been closed after the warning. Whether right or wrong - its my opinion. Almost every issue here has been discussed over and over and over and over and over.

 

[jda]

What is as stupid as anything that they have said is that they approached the EPA for supposedly vinegar, vitamin C, bacteria and RODI water... none of which are EPA controlled substances. ...so they were dumb to contact the EPA, knew that they should have, or they are lying again about something. There is no questions that Busan 77 is an EPA controlled substance and it must be labeled.