Was It Right Of Neptune?

[Forsaken77]

Just to be clear, this isn't a bashing thread. I am interested in people's opinions on the matter, or if you've even thought about it. It's about how, and when, companies introduce products to market.

Being Neptune recently released the head unit of the 2016 Apex for sale separately from the whole package, do you think they should have offered it sooner, or from the beginning?

Instead of only offering the $700 package for 2 years, especially for people that already had the older Apex, do you think they took advantage by making people rebuy the entire package at full price when they could've just as easily sold the head unit by itself for people who already owned the older model with numerous accessory modules?

Do you think they should have offered the head unit, the controller, as a separate unit from the beginning for previous Apex owners instead of making them buy another complete unit? In your opinion, is that exploitation of the customer base?

And for folks that like to punch holes in everything, yes, I realize they're not forcing people to buy it and it's a choice. That's not what this is about. It's about offering choice from the beginning, especially to customers that bought the older unit right before the 2016 model came out. Should they have offered the head unit alone to people like that?

Again... Just a discussion. No bashing.

 

[JoshH]

While I don't agree with about half of what Neptune does, honestly, they are first and foremost a business. When spending huge $$$$ to R&D a new system I can totally understand only offering it as a complete package just to ensure they get there investment back. It would be nice if they took a page out of the GHL play book and offered just the head unit for sale off the bat. But it's an understandable move from a business standpoint.

 

[laverda]

It makes sense to sell the whole package to start until they fill the immediate demand. Why sell part of the package when there is plenty of demand for the whole package and limited supply of head units. They were under no obligation to sell just the head unit at all. I am glad they are going to be offering it now. Even though I am not sure I will upgrade mine. I am sure it is in part to the Trident becoming available shortly and supplies of head unit becoming available.

 

[Jlentz]

The new version has been out 2 years now???

dang. I guess I should get around to that upgrade soon.

 

[Sunny Goold]

Yep I think they did it so people could move into Triton without upgrading everything. I'm just starting my first reef tank now so I'm trying to pick up a used Classic Apex - I wish I could afford to go the newer model with Triton but it's way too expensive and probably overkill for me right now. I do think they should upgrade the powerbar for non-US. I imagine a lot of Apex users out of the States were really upset that they would have to buy the whole pack just to get the new head unit - therefore getting an extra 'old' powerbar that they don't need. In my view Apex needs to fix that pretty fast and if they did it would be amazing for them in Europe. There's also the COR20 which I wanted to seriously consider but seems the don't have 220V.

There's also a bunch of new controllers coming onto the markets like eKoral and (maybe sometime in the next year - latest I heard was April) Vertex. I am sure Neptune looked at that and thought "if we make people upgrade everything suddenly they have the option to look at these competitors. I know for me the options with the breakout box provide are a huge reason to go with Apex. I don't think eKoral or the Vertex Cerebra would have that.

I know most serious reefers who have the money will opt for Triton but it is a massive step up in cost especially if Seneye does release the Coral at $200 (with Alk estimates) at around $10/mth for the slides.

It just seems to me like if everyone releases the products reefers will have seriously amazing options. Assuming this does happen this year I think it's a pivotal step for reefers and we could open it up for a lot more people to come into the community. I know a few years ago even it all seemed too complex to me. Now with these products in the pipeline I feel like my chances of being successful in this hobby are much greater.

 

[Muttley000]

Neptune said they couldn't sell head units because of demand for the whole enchilada was too high and they needed production to sell the new system. I take them at their word that as a business they sold them as stand alone as soon as they were able to.

 

[trido]

I think the EB832 is worth my purchase of the whole package. I was able to use all of my other modules and if I could afford it, I'd buy three more EB832s to replace my old EB8's. I sure get tired of this "Neptune should take better care of us" attitude so many seem to have. They are in the business of making money. AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. A person doesn't need a controller to have a reef tank.

 

[Sunny Goold]

Yeah I'd love to be able to get the EB832 - I agree - I think that attitude is unfair on Neptune... the market for Neptune is much bigger than the hard core reefers here - they are a business and we want them to be successful, which provides us with better products. But I think 90% of people couldn't have anything near a successful reef tank without a controller - I think it's the core key piece of the hobby and the improvements coming could mean 2X the number of people can get into reefing.

 

[Forsaken77]

I think the EB832 is worth my purchase of the whole package. I was able to use all of my other modules and if I could afford it, I'd buy three more EB832s to replace my old EB8's. I sure get tired of this "Neptune should take better care of us" attitude so many seem to have. They are in the business of making money. AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. A person doesn't need a controller to have a reef tank.

That's why it was labeled as not a bashing thread, but an opinion of what people thought. Kind of like market feedback. Obviously they are a business. Just thought it would be a topic for people to discuss and see where people stand in regards to WHEN a certain product is released and NOT whether a controller is necessary, whether you can/can't afford one, whether they're under no obligation to do XY or Z. Not the point of discussion. The Apex head unit is a unique situation in this hobby and WHEN the head unit was released.

Therefore, I'd like to hear whether people are fine with it, or if someone bought an Apex Gold package 6 months before the 2016 came out and felt ripped off that a head unit was only made available 2 years later. I'd like to hear their opinion as well.

It was also stated that nobody's forcing you to buy an Apex (controller). So obviously a controller isn't necessary, yet once again, not what the topic was about. You don't need a reef tank either, yet here we are.

Nobody yet has said they think Neptune should "take better care of us" and the thread was intentionally labeled as not a slight against Neptune. I don't even own an Apex. So I have no opinion on the matter as far as this goes. I think you're taking it out of context and grouping this topic with others of a different type.

 

[Forsaken77]

Yep I think they did it so people could move into Triton without upgrading everything. I'm just starting my first reef tank now so I'm trying to pick up a used Classic Apex - I wish I could afford to go the newer model with Triton but it's way too expensive and probably overkill for me right now. I do think they should upgrade the powerbar for non-US. I imagine a lot of Apex users out of the States were really upset that they would have to buy the whole pack just to get the new head unit - therefore getting an extra 'old' powerbar that they don't need. In my view Apex needs to fix that pretty fast and if they did it would be amazing for them in Europe. There's also the COR20 which I wanted to seriously consider but seems the don't have 220V.

There's also a bunch of new controllers coming onto the markets like eKoral and (maybe sometime in the next year - latest I heard was April) Vertex. I am sure Neptune looked at that and thought "if we make people upgrade everything suddenly they have the option to look at these competitors. I know for me the options with the breakout box provide are a huge reason to go with Apex. I don't think eKoral or the Vertex Cerebra would have that.

I know most serious reefers who have the money will opt for Triton but it is a massive step up in cost especially if Seneye does release the Coral at $200 (with Alk estimates) at around $10/mth for the slides.

It just seems to me like if everyone releases the products reefers will have seriously amazing options. Assuming this does happen this year I think it's a pivotal step for reefers and we could open it up for a lot more people to come into the community. I know a few years ago even it all seemed too complex to me. Now with these products in the pipeline I feel like my chances of being successful in this hobby are much greater.

So in Europe they only offer the original EB8, and not the 832? Wasn't aware of that. I suppose it's good that it's even offered at all, being a lot of US products aren't sold internationally in this hobby. Especially niche products.

From what I understand, the 832 is the biggest improvement with much more connectivity options.

 

[Sunny Goold]

In Europe it's the EB6 (which is like the EB8 only with 6 outlets) - there's also no Apex Jr (Same anywhere with 220V - most of the world

I don't have an issue with being a little bit behind. I see it from the business case point of view for Neptune. They are ahead in the US and want to stay there. That's why I brought up the competition (sorry if that wasn't the purpose of your thread). I have to get an Energy bar but your post has made me think about this and I am going to wait as long as possible in the hope Neptune brings out a 632. I don't know if I would feel ripped off if I bought an EB6 and they brought out a 632 (or a 220v 832) straight after - probably a little bit but not much assuming I wasn't missing some key functionality.

Another way to put it is (in my view) Neptunes are pushing to release what they can, when the product is ready. I would rather them do it this way than wait until they have all the products for that lineup. All good that I may have to wait - I love how they are leading the market in this way. I'm hoping they are super successful with the Triton as that should mean they bring in the funds to update the rest of the lineup

So in Europe they only offer the original EB8, and not the 832? Wasn't aware of that. I suppose it's good that it's even offered at all, being a lot of US products aren't sold internationally in this hobby. Especially niche products.

From what I understand, the 832 is the biggest improvement with much more connectivity options.

 

[Forsaken77]

In Europe it's the EB6 (which is like the EB8 only with 6 outlets) - there's also no Apex Jr (Same anywhere with 220V - most of the world

I don't have an issue with being a little bit behind. I see it from the business case point of view for Neptune. They are ahead in the US and want to stay there. That's why I brought up the competition (sorry if that wasn't the purpose of your thread). I have to get an Energy bar but your post has made me think about this and I am going to wait as long as possible in the hope Neptune brings out a 632. I don't know if I would feel ripped off if I bought an EB6 and they brought out a 632 (or a 220v 832) straight after - probably a little bit but not much assuming I wasn't missing some key functionality.

Another way to put it is (in my view) Neptunes are pushing to release what they can, when the product is ready. I would rather them do it this way than wait until they have all the products for that lineup. All good that I may have to wait - I love how they are leading the market in this way. I'm hoping they are super successful with the Triton as that should mean they bring in the funds to update the rest of the lineup

I think you mean the Apex Trident, not Triton . In any case, is it possible for you to order an 832 from the states and just use adapter plugs with a 110 to 220 converter, or is it more trouble than it's worth? 6 outlets seems kind of bare for a reef tank. Maybe on eBay or something?

 

[NinnJinn]

While I am not bashing and I do not own Neptune merchandise I personally think it's a typical marketing scheme of things.
It seems like most companies are always in a hurry to get products out as soon as possible with low stock on hand.

Although at least they are making their systems compatible with their older ones.

Many years ago like 20-plus years ago I ended up getting out of playing video games due to the fact that a new console would come out bigger and better that you had to buy the same games over and over because the older ones weren't compatible with the newer system.

 

[Mark Gray]

I think this was ok, They are in it to make money, they have spent a lot of money on R&D so I think it was ok. Their customer service is very good if I ever have a problem they are quick to respond, this is also a free service so yeah I think it was right of them

 

[Fritzhamer]

I sold my classic and picked up the 2016 for less than just purchasing the head unit would have cost me (which was Terrance’s advice to everyone that complained). All in All I got much more than just the head unit. I’m really pleased.

 

[Sunny Goold]

I think you mean the Apex Trident, not Triton . In any case, is it possible for you to order an 832 from the states and just use adapter plugs with a 110 to 220 converter, or is it more trouble than it's worth? 6 outlets seems kind of bare for a reef tank. Maybe on eBay or something?

Um I thought about it but then I maybe need to convert back (or just buy all my stuff from the states).

But now you have me thinking. The only equipment I already have that I need to plug into my Apex will be heaters - so I can do some research on them and find out if I need a transformer coming out as well. My lights and wavemaker don't need to be plugged in. I am could get a US Jebao online (so no difference there in price) - Then there's the skimmer - which is big... so shipping.

But a EB6 is EUR230! - that compares to the EB8 in the US for $160 (even incl 21% VAT the EB8 should convert to about EUR170). Plus there are heaps more options on Ebay (especially with the new controllers being sold with Trident).

Now you have me thinking it's probably worth it to simply get everything in 110V from the US. I just bought a bunch of plumbing stuff of @Bulk Reef Supply (for the life of me I couldn't find simple things in EU like Gate Valves or streets - so I will see how it works out with shipping forwarding and duties. If I was sensible I should just fly to the US for 1 day and fly back

I'm in Czech and don't have the funds to just pay up for what I need - so I'm happy to have extra happy if I get better value.

So to bring it back to the conversation I don't feel like how they have released the products is exploitation at all - I am completely fine with that. However, I do feel like the EU pricing is exploitation and I know a lot more people outside the US would get an Apex if the products and pricing was fair. My brother is also doing a reef tank (he has an amazing planted freshwater and wants to go next level with a reefer). He will get all the stuff. He'd definitely get the Apex with Trident and the COR20 if it was fair - but he would have to pay much more and the EB6 powerbar, when next to the rest of the new Apex stuff) is simply not in the same league - plus COR20 isn't avail in 220V. Compare that to what eKoral has just brought out for everyone - whether 110V or 220V.

It's also the perception. It should be really easy for Neptune to offer everyone the same thing. It is a huge outlay and you are buying into an ecosystem. I am worried that Neptune just won't build any more products in the future for 220V and not being certain I will be able to build into this future certain makes me feel ripped off.

Plus I want Neptune to be super successful. It would be super simple for them to more than double their market and that would improve their financials and mean more money for R&D and all this advancement means reefing is accessible to more people.

 

[Forsaken77]

Being they came out with the head unit separately, I wonder if they could have released the eb832 bar, the head unit, and the probe pack as accessories instead of a whole package.

Most folks would've upgraded to the 832 bar. I don't know if the 832 works with the older Apex, but if you needed the head unit for that bar specifically, they probably would've upgraded to that as well.

It's always best to offer consumers choice when buying your products. Though I don't know which components are backwards compatible with the older version and which are not.

 

[Sunny Goold]

Being they came out with the head unit separately, I wonder if they could have released the eb832 bar, the head unit, and the probe pack as accessories instead of a whole package.

Most folks would've upgraded to the 832 bar. I don't know if the 832 works with the older Apex, but if you needed the head unit for that bar specifically, they probably would've upgraded to that as well.

It's always best to offer consumers choice when buying your products. Though I don't know which components are backwards compatible with the older version and which are not.

You've convinced me - I probably will just get everything US and run it off the 832 assuming it is compatible with the classic head unit. The 832 is much better (and will work out the same or cheaper) and it future proofs me as I know Neptune will continue to develop for the US market.

Thanks

 

[Breadman03]

The 832 is not compatible with the Classic head unit.

 

[ca1ore]

The 832 is not compatible with the Classic head unit.

True, but it was available separately from the start.

To the original post ..... I really don't have an issue with it. It's pretty much de rigeur for many companies to attempt to sell a 'full' replacement before offering certain components piece-meal. As noted, they are in the business of making money ..... and frankly we should ALL want them to!!! I want my 'investment' in the Apex to continue to be supported and innovated (that's part of the reason I went with them in the first place). I've too many orphan products at home where the OEM has gone belly up (mostly in the stereo/audio arena; found a good amp tech but I don't think he could service my Apex LOL).