Was It Right Of Neptune?

[evolved]

I didn’t mean to come across as a “expert”. I was just repeating what I heard, didn’t mean to make it sound like I knew it to be a fact.

Oh my comment was not at all directed towards any one particular person; "experts" was intentionally plural.

 

[Forsaken77]

I am not sure what amazes me more in these threads; the conspiracy theories or the number of sudden manufacturing "experts".

It does seem odd, does it not? That they would release the original power bar, then the new head unit, but not an updated power bar?

I can understand people outside the US being upset over that. They invested in an ecosystem, which they had to design they're equipment choices around, and are getting left out. What good is the head unit without an upgraded bar, besides wifi (for the most part)?

It is possible to support a company, yet disagree with actions or decisions they make.

 

[Forsaken77]

Um I thought about it but then I maybe need to convert back (or just buy all my stuff from the states).

But now you have me thinking. The only equipment I already have that I need to plug into my Apex will be heaters - so I can do some research on them and find out if I need a transformer coming out as well. My lights and wavemaker don't need to be plugged in. I am could get a US Jebao online (so no difference there in price) - Then there's the skimmer - which is big... so shipping.

But a EB6 is EUR230! - that compares to the EB8 in the US for $160 (even incl 21% VAT the EB8 should convert to about EUR170). Plus there are heaps more options on Ebay (especially with the new controllers being sold with Trident).

Now you have me thinking it's probably worth it to simply get everything in 110V from the US. I just bought a bunch of plumbing stuff of @Bulk Reef Supply (for the life of me I couldn't find simple things in EU like Gate Valves or streets - so I will see how it works out with shipping forwarding and duties. If I was sensible I should just fly to the US for 1 day and fly back

I'm in Czech and don't have the funds to just pay up for what I need - so I'm happy to have extra happy if I get better value.

So to bring it back to the conversation I don't feel like how they have released the products is exploitation at all - I am completely fine with that. However, I do feel like the EU pricing is exploitation and I know a lot more people outside the US would get an Apex if the products and pricing was fair. My brother is also doing a reef tank (he has an amazing planted freshwater and wants to go next level with a reefer). He will get all the stuff. He'd definitely get the Apex with Trident and the COR20 if it was fair - but he would have to pay much more and the EB6 powerbar, when next to the rest of the new Apex stuff) is simply not in the same league - plus COR20 isn't avail in 220V. Compare that to what eKoral has just brought out for everyone - whether 110V or 220V.

It's also the perception. It should be really easy for Neptune to offer everyone the same thing. It is a huge outlay and you are buying into an ecosystem. I am worried that Neptune just won't build any more products in the future for 220V and not being certain I will be able to build into this future certain makes me feel ripped off.

Plus I want Neptune to be super successful. It would be super simple for them to more than double their market and that would improve their financials and mean more money for R&D and all this advancement means reefing is accessible to more people.

Just wanted to let you know that someone else here brought up a good point about using American versions of Apex in other countries.

When I asked about using converters and adapters, they said that your other equipment that would also be connected to the Apex would have to be converted and some equipment may not work properly on 110, 60Hz. Very valid point.

They also mentioned that you may not receive warranty support from Neptune on products that are not sold outside the US. It also could possibly void any warranties on your other equipment if the power conversion causes problems with anything.

It sounded like a good idea to get you what you needed at a better price, but unfortunately there's more variables to consider that we didn't think of.

 

[ca1ore]

I am not sure what amazes me more in these threads; the conspiracy theories or the number of sudden manufacturing "experts".

Agreed, no reason to let actual facts or a tiny bit of common sense get in the way of a good opinion ..... or an entertaining conspiracy theory. I actually consult to the manufacturing industry (supply chain mostly), and long ago lost interest in trying to correct uniformed speculation in these kinds of threads.

 

[Handegard]

Agreed, no reason to let actual facts or a tiny bit of common sense get in the way of a good opinion ..... or an entertaining conspiracy theory. I actually consult to the manufacturing industry (supply chain mostly), and long ago lost interest in trying to correct uniformed speculation in these kinds of threads.

And yet here you are, trying to correct uniformed speculation in this thread

I mean that in jest. I know how you feel, I long ago stopped trying to help in car forums. I may be an ASE Certified Master Auto Technician, but yeah, sure, you’re buddy said do it that way. I’m not gonna argue...

 

[Sleepydoc]

If you think about it, There are a lot of reefers in Europe, and as has been pointed out getting a device approved for the EU automatically opens up virtually all of Europe. If it were a simple or trivial task, why wouldn’t they have done it already? Not having a 220v power bar makes the Apex 2016 less desirable, likely hurts sales and annoys people, none of which are in Neptune’s interest.

Not as interesting as a conspiracy theory, but I think the technical design reason is more plausible.

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

So I don’t have nor will I probably ever have anything automated on my system, except my lights turning on and off. This day in age, everyone one has of course a right to their opinion and beliefs. For those who love and buy apex that’s totally awesome, and for those who do not want to that’s at the same level.

However, when we all started to reef, what’s the fun in feeding when a machine does everything little thing for you? Having the time, making the time, and having the drive to take care of my tank every day not only gives me experience but to me builds the love. In real life Mother Nature doesn’t need automatic dosing machines or controllers, it just flies by the seat of her pants and well tomorrow is tomorrow.

Do I think people who have them are any different than myself no, they may have a justified reason. But as far as Apex doing what they do, hmmmm from an outsiders point of view I wouldn’t buy one. They always claim it’s to help with costs of research and development etc. Well unless they have reinvented the wheel, there is only so much you can add. Their platform, and programming is basically already started. Yes they may make improvements, but it’s because paying customers are the beta testers. If there are enough complaints of course they will fix it, they want that money.

It’s the same thing with certain led lights, etc. They get 90% of their information from paying customers, and sometimes they don’t even fix it yet. It’s not just our hobby, but anything really that we pay for. Look even at fast food which I avoid often. My niece wanted cheese on her sandwhich but didn’t want the mayo, tomato etc just the cheese. They charge 75 cents lol for a piece of cheese, but they don’t give us a credit if we leave the other items off.

Am I complaining (lol gosh sounds like it ) but honestly I’m just trying to be open minded. I really am not complaining, because people will do what they feel they need to do. There is nothing wrong with that, and what’s just as hard is trying to make millions of people happy. It’s just very very hard to do now a days.

 

[tiggs]

I just think Apex has to do whatever is best for their business and the products they put out. They provide a premium product for a niche market that's a subset of a larger industry, so it's not like they have a ton of potential market share out there. IMO, sometimes that means looking past business decisions that may rub some people the wrong way, in the hopes that they'll use the additional revenue and momentum to push the controller market forward even more than they already have and continue to innovate. Sure, some things they could have done better (especially when it comes to offering consistent options to non-US based customers), so I'm also not saying they're perfect.

The other aspect we tend to forget is their place in the industry. In comparison to other controllers (with the exception of maybe GHL, which I can't speak on), their product is substantially better overall. If we want Apex to focus more on pricing customers into their product, then someone needs to give them actual competition. I'm speaking from the outside looking in, since I have no experience with GHL, but maybe they're the first brand to do it. There certainly hasn't been anything else that's even been remotely close to the finished product that Apex puts out. Sure, we see demos of amazing looking devices, but then they either have major delays or completely flop because of functionality issues (looking at you Vertex, with your "surprise you're a beta tester!" launch strategy and every other fancy prototype we've seen). Some people are jumping onboard the Raspberry Pi train, which I have very mixed feelings on. As an 18 year veteran of the system engineering and software development worlds, I'm all about leveraging open source technologies to create and improve things. With that being said, my reef means entirely too much to me to hand over full control to a device that's essentially a tinkering/educational tool with limited expandability, lack of proper engineering, and most likely stability concerns. I'm not knocking the Reef Pi project, because I think it's a very clever idea and has the potential to eventually be something solid, but personally, I'd just never trust a device to control my tank that wasn't specifically created for that purpose with extreme amounts of testing and fail safes in place. Just my two cents.

 

[Sunny Goold]

I wonder what's up with not supplying an updated power bar outside N. America? It seems counter intuitive to provide a head unit without offering the bar, which is arguably the biggest improvement.

And not only not offering the 832, but even an updated version of that eb6, which sounds just short of a surge protector (exaggeration).

But they have the sales data. So maybe they don't think it's profitable to offer them in select markets.

Can't people in the UK just use an American version? Save some money and just use converters?

Just wanted to let you know that someone else here brought up a good point about using American versions of Apex in other countries.

When I asked about using converters and adapters, they said that your other equipment that would also be connected to the Apex would have to be converted and some equipment may not work properly on 110, 60Hz. Very valid point.

They also mentioned that you may not receive warranty support from Neptune on products that are not sold outside the US. It also could possibly void any warranties on your other equipment if the power conversion causes problems with anything.

It sounded like a good idea to get you what you needed at a better price, but unfortunately there's more variables to consider that we didn't think of.

Thanks - yeah there are a lot of things to consider. I'm just going to wait on the equipment side and get all the other parts of my tank done. I have heaps of time to think about it. My brother said to me he was probably going to do a system with all US products. To me that sounds sensible. The only thing that may be a hassle to buy and ship from the US will be the protein skimmer (I asked Bubble Magus and you can't use their 220v skimmers on 1100v with an adapter).

It's clear to me I have to think about Apex 110v and Apex 220v as two completely different ecosystems (unfortunately).

It's probably not going to save much money (with shipping etc.) but Apex 110v means I can upgrade on Apex and other products in the future. Who knows - by the time I am ready to get this stuff eKoral may have a breakout box, the Vertex Cerebra may be out or Neptunes catch up with 220v products (and if they are just 1 year behind on 220v it wouldn't concern me).

There's a lot of products I want to see released / heard are being released and that's AMAZING - it's probably just better to wait to see how the dust settles on these things.

And on the conspiracy theories and all that I don't feel like we are talking about that. We are really talking about the result on us (the customer), how that impacts us especially in relation to future purchases. Past behavior gives us the best indication into what may happen in the future and what happens in the future is critical when buying into an ecosystem (and why for example not much has touched on the Cerebra). When I look at it from a US point of view I think Apex are doing an amazing job. They can't keep every customer happy but I think everyone should be because the advancement they have made in the last few years has been awesome.

 

[tastyfish]

I am not sure what amazes me more in these threads; the conspiracy theories or the number of sudden manufacturing "experts".

Not sure on the conspiracy theory stuff, but you don't need to be a manufacturing expert nor have I seen anyone claiming to be.

I didn’t mean to come across as a “expert”. I was just repeating what I heard, didn’t mean to make it sound like I knew it to be a fact.

None of your posts have come across that way to me. I don't see the problem personally.

 

[Muttley000]

Hello,

So I don’t have nor will I probably ever have anything automated on my system, except my lights turning on and off. This day in age, everyone one has of course a right to their opinion and beliefs. For those who love and buy apex that’s totally awesome, and for those who do not want to that’s at the same level.

However, when we all started to reef, what’s the fun in feeding when a machine does everything little thing for you? Having the time, making the time, and having the drive to take care of my tank every day not only gives me experience but to me builds the love. In real life Mother Nature doesn’t need automatic dosing machines or controllers, it just flies by the seat of her pants and well tomorrow is tomorrow.

Do I think people who have them are any different than myself no, they may have a justified reason. But as far as Apex doing what they do, hmmmm from an outsiders point of view I wouldn’t buy one. They always claim it’s to help with costs of research and development etc. Well unless they have reinvented the wheel, there is only so much you can add. Their platform, and programming is basically already started. Yes they may make improvements, but it’s because paying customers are the beta testers. If there are enough complaints of course they will fix it, they want that money.

It’s the same thing with certain led lights, etc. They get 90% of their information from paying customers, and sometimes they don’t even fix it yet. It’s not just our hobby, but anything really that we pay for. Look even at fast food which I avoid often. My niece wanted cheese on her sandwhich but didn’t want the mayo, tomato etc just the cheese. They charge 75 cents lol for a piece of cheese, but they don’t give us a credit if we leave the other items off.

Am I complaining (lol gosh sounds like it ) but honestly I’m just trying to be open minded. I really am not complaining, because people will do what they feel they need to do. There is nothing wrong with that, and what’s just as hard is trying to make millions of people happy. It’s just very very hard to do now a days.

Some valid points here, and I do enjoy the tasks my apex does, and will do once the trident is released. The fact of the matter for me is that I can't be there 24 hours a day, and in fact with a ring of the phone I may not have time or see my tanks for weeks at a time. I do not think I could participate in the hobby right now with out it because of my work life.

 

[Forsaken77]

There's no conspiracy theories. I didn't see any Scientology mentioned.

People can have a discussion about how/when products are introduced to the market without being criticized for it.

So we now have a resident expert on conspiracy theorists? Cool.

Not everybody lets a fish tank run their life, and some folks aren't aware of certain things going on at all times with every product. For example, I didn't know that non-US Apex owners were stuck with an eb6 bar. That sheds more light on the market and the company for me.

FWIW, the title of the thread was supposed to be "was neptune's timing right?" But I couldn't edit it.

The elitist attitudes don't contribute to anything.

 

[mitch91175]

This is how I see it. Neptune Systems can do whatever they want to do with their products. That is their right. Now to my feelings about it. I AM THE CONSUMER! I have a right to decide whether I want to deal with their business practices. We have more power as consumers than some think. We speak with our wallets. If you feel that they pulled something over on you, guess what, you DO NOT have to buy their products. Case in point, the Trident has been postponed for whatever reason and I personally was on the market for something to measure/correct my alkalinity. Instead of cry about "Oh Neptune Systems, please, pretty please release your Trident so I can have it in my system", I just looked at what else was on the market and made a decision to not wait for it to be released (happy I did buy something else to be honest).

Now with that said, I do have 2 - 2016 Apex units for my frag and display tank. They are great products for my intended use. There is a lot of competition out there, so you speak with your wallet. So "was Neptune's timing right" who knows or cares really. Was it a "conspiracy", I do not care about that either. They did it how there team decided to do it and that is fine by me.

 

[Forsaken77]

This is how I see it. Neptune Systems can do whatever they want to do with their products. That is their right. Now to my feelings about it. I AM THE CONSUMER! I have a right to decide whether I want to deal with their business practices. We have more power as consumers than some think. We speak with our wallets. If you feel that they pulled something over on you, guess what, you DO NOT have to buy their products. Case in point, the Trident has been postponed for whatever reason and I personally was on the market for something to measure/correct my alkalinity. Instead of cry about "Oh Neptune Systems, please, pretty please release your Trident so I can have it in my system", I just looked at what else was on the market and made a decision to not wait for it to be released (happy I did buy something else to be honest).

Now with that said, I do have 2 - 2016 Apex units for my frag and display tank. They are great products for my intended use. There is a lot of competition out there, so you speak with your wallet. So "was Neptune's timing right" who knows or cares really. Was it a "conspiracy", I do not care about that either. They did it how there team decided to do it and that is fine by me.

Being I don't own an Apex, or any system controller for that matter, what is all of this competition you mention? Seriously, because I may be looking at a controller for certain reasons and would like something good.

I'm just interested to know what good alternatives to an Apex are available. I like that the eKoral is designed by a software company, which should finally have a good UI. But it's not out yet, right?

 

[Sunny Goold]

Being I don't own an Apex, or any system controller for that matter, what is all of this competition you mention? Seriously, because I may be looking at a controller for certain reasons and would like something good.

I'm just interested to know what good alternatives to an Apex are available. I like that the eKoral is designed by a software company, which should finally have a good UI. But it's not out yet, right?

The eKoral is out and there is a current thread about it @eKoProCS even answered in that thread - which is really cool I think.

I would be interested on their take on why @eKoProCS are not releasing in Europe (I can pick it up in Australia when I am there next if I want it).
After noticing this I think it increases the likelihood that EU regulations may be the reason why Neptune haven't released the 832 on 220V.

A lot of companies are behind on releases - I think it's just funding and needing to get it right. Seneye (I read) have the new Coral coming with Alk (calculated somehow but I think it will be sufficient for most of us over Trident). Then there is Vertex and their Cerebra.

Taking into account I've only seen it online overall I am really impressed with eKoral. I think it's perfect for people who want to get into reefing and don't have the time to tinker with everything. I also really love their pricing.

Here is that thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ekoral-pro-vs-apex.390500/ and also @Cherub mentions he has one and has been happy with the customer service. Good luck and if you get one I'd love to read your feedback and what you are using it for

 

[eKoProCS]

The eKoral is out and there is a current thread about it @eKoProCS even answered in that thread - which is really cool I think.

I would be interested on their take on why @eKoProCS are not releasing in Europe (I can pick it up in Australia when I am there next if I want it).
After noticing this I think it increases the likelihood that EU regulations may be the reason why Neptune haven't released the 832 on 220V.

A lot of companies are behind on releases - I think it's just funding and needing to get it right. Seneye (I read) have the new Coral coming with Alk (calculated somehow but I think it will be sufficient for most of us over Trident). Then there is Vertex and their Cerebra.

Taking into account I've only seen it online overall I am really impressed with eKoral. I think it's perfect for people who want to get into reefing and don't have the time to tinker with everything. I also really love their pricing.

Here is that thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ekoral-pro-vs-apex.390500/ and also @Cherub mentions he has one and has been happy with the customer service. Good luck and if you get one I'd love to read your feedback and what you are using it for

Thank you for the kind words. We do have plans to make it to Europe, and the Australian version will be out next month.

 

[mitch91175]

Being I don't own an Apex, or any system controller for that matter, what is all of this competition you mention? Seriously, because I may be looking at a controller for certain reasons and would like something good.

I'm just interested to know what good alternatives to an Apex are available. I like that the eKoral is designed by a software company, which should finally have a good UI. But it's not out yet, right?

Others have already mentioned the alternative controllers, i.e GHL, Vertex, etc. Haven't used it, but I'd say that GHL is right up there with the Apex. For Trident competition, you have the Alkatronic, KH Guardian Pro, etc. Either of these alk units can run as a standalone unit (and send alk measures to the Apex).

 

[mitch91175]

The eKoral app looks promising. It is good that they started out as a software company, but at the same time hopefully they are in touch with us reefers needs and take advice from the reefing community to make their product more appealing to those looking for a change. Software companies tend to integrate other equipment functionality much better so if that is their approach, things could get very interesting.

Haven't seen it their hardware supports bluetooth but would be great if it does. Having to use a 0-10V connection is a pain. There has to be a better approach you would imagine.

Also like that they are a software company from the aspect of if they are successful, they can help develop maybe some type of standards for other equipment to communicate with each other and have manufacturers be able to use those "industry" standards for communicating with a controller. Now wouldn't that be sweat. Here's an example (may not be the best but it is one):

Skimmer is acting up and the skimmer manufacturer has incorporated a sensor into their design that communicates via bluetooth to its paired controller. The controller receives this signal and can take certain actions against the skimmer.

Before anyone chims in about this particular example and say "but the Apex can already do this", you are correct. To me its not about the actual functionality (at this point), but how you are implementing said functionality to an "open" system. The skimmer manufacturer would be able to do firmware updates to the communication device which would make it more appealing to me. May not make sense to everyone and it isn't intended to.

But something like having a standard other than a 0-10V hardwired connection would open doors for us all. At that point we won't be "locked" into having to buy everything from one particular manufacturer and hope that they stay relevant in the long haul.

@eKoProCS, being a software company first I am sure you guys have a road map planned for your product line. In that road map, have you guys thought about working with other major manufacturers to develop a new industry device-to-device communication standard that can be used with your controller as well as anyone else that have the means to incorporate the standard and pass some type of certification?

 

[Sunny Goold]

But something like having a standard other than a 0-10V hardwired connection would open doors for us all. At that point we won't be "locked" into having to buy everything from one particular manufacturer and hope that they stay relevant in the long haul.

@eKoProCS, being a software company first I am sure you guys have a road map planned for your product line. In that road map, have you guys thought about working with other major manufacturers to develop a new industry device-to-device communication standard that can be used with your controller as well as anyone else that have the means to incorporate the standard and pass some type of certification?

Exactly - that would be amazing. Like a backup power solution (that's affordable and safe) that's compatible with any pump. Surely it can't be that difficult - arrggghh.

You should be able to buy any pump - it should not come with a controller (which should reduce the price of the pump). You should just be able to connect it into any Controller - like Apex or eKoral. There should be a variety of of batteries that plug into that controller. When the power goes out your return pump should just keep going (on power saving mode).

I see so much of the people in this hobby had awesome DIY skillz but I wish I'd have know it was so important. If someone like eKoral does what you are talking about Mitch I think it will rapidly open up this hobby to a lot more people and that'd be better for everyone.

 

[eKoProCS]

The eKoral app looks promising. It is good that they started out as a software company, but at the same time hopefully they are in touch with us reefers needs and take advice from the reefing community to make their product more appealing to those looking for a change. Software companies tend to integrate other equipment functionality much better so if that is their approach, things could get very interesting.

Haven't seen it their hardware supports bluetooth but would be great if it does. Having to use a 0-10V connection is a pain. There has to be a better approach you would imagine.

Also like that they are a software company from the aspect of if they are successful, they can help develop maybe some type of standards for other equipment to communicate with each other and have manufacturers be able to use those "industry" standards for communicating with a controller. Now wouldn't that be sweat. Here's an example (may not be the best but it is one):

Skimmer is acting up and the skimmer manufacturer has incorporated a sensor into their design that communicates via bluetooth to its paired controller. The controller receives this signal and can take certain actions against the skimmer.

Before anyone chims in about this particular example and say "but the Apex can already do this", you are correct. To me its not about the actual functionality (at this point), but how you are implementing said functionality to an "open" system. The skimmer manufacturer would be able to do firmware updates to the communication device which would make it more appealing to me. May not make sense to everyone and it isn't intended to.

But something like having a standard other than a 0-10V hardwired connection would open doors for us all. At that point we won't be "locked" into having to buy everything from one particular manufacturer and hope that they stay relevant in the long haul.

@eKoProCS, being a software company first I am sure you guys have a road map planned for your product line. In that road map, have you guys thought about working with other major manufacturers to develop a new industry device-to-device communication standard that can be used with your controller as well as anyone else that have the means to incorporate the standard and pass some type of certification?

As this post was originally about Neptune's, I am going to make my answer short. Being a software company, creating an ecosystem to integrate different products would be the ultimate goal, but we are just starting out and have a long way to go before we achieve that.