Water Changes = Blood Letting

[FlyPenFly]

Water changes, while I do them, remind me a lot of blood letting.


Blood letting was medical practice #1 and everyone was Convinced it was the best thing to do for the vast majority of ailments for 2000 years. People just didn't understand what was going on with the body yet humongous volumes of medical literature was written about it's benefits and how it purifies the body.


Today, we do it for a very limited number of diseases and it's considered horribly counterproductive. We understand much better how the human body functions and we've grown past it. When for the most of human history, blood letting was considered an Of Course treatment, nowadays people are disgusted that humanity as a whole could have been so stupid.


I think reef keeping today, we're still in the blood letting stage of development. We don't really know what's going on, how different corals interact, how other symbiotic organisms work in a closed aquarium. So we don't really know any better so we're just going to remove everything by taking a arbitrary percentage of the water out at arbitrary intervals.


It's horribly unscientific yet we just don't really know any better. Examples of thriving reefs that don't do water changes are simply dismissed because nobody really knows what's going on and can't explain it easily. This is how just about everyone has been perpetuating this hobby.

Sorry, just ranting. I still do water changes myself.

 

[Trex]

With bloodletting new clean blood wasn't put back into the body.

In our tanks, elements (( major, minor, and trace )) are used up -- they need to be replaced, dosing and water changes accomplish this, and (( to a degree )) can be measured --- Cal, Alk, and Mag tests --- to see the difference. Pretty easy to explain, and that isn't even touching on the removal of DOCs, heavy metals and the like that water changes also accomplish.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I do 3 part dosing, run an algae scrubber, run an oversized skimmer, and also use supplements such as iodine and strontium which I do test for. I also occasionally also add Reef Trace.

The point still stands, we remove water because we don't know what we're doing or really what exactly what we're removing.

Salt mixes from different companies and even different batches of synthetic salts have different concentrations of elements. When we do our arbitrary quantity and frequency water changes, it's all sort of just random. We don't really know how much of what we're adding back in.

 

[Trex]

I do 3 part dosing, run an algae scrubber, run an oversized skimmer, and also use supplements such as iodine and strontium which I do test for. I also occasionally also add Reef Trace.

The point still stands, we remove water because we don't know what we're doing or really what exactly what we're removing.

Just gave you some examples, but you can stand by your broad brush statement if you choose.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Which heavy metals exactly and what kinds of DOC?

 

[Kimberlee]

Acually there is one real difference in the salts and that is the type of mag being used. I really don't understand how this statement is true as I have very good reasons for doing water changes and I understand those reasons.....I also think the results show us the reasons we preform WC as well and, that's hard evidence. I know many people don't do WC reguarly, but I bet we all do them at some point. Those who do not do regular WC are normally running obscene sized skimmers and other forms of filtration as well as dosing daily to replace required elements. While there is more that we don't understand, we have made grate strides over the years to understand our ecosystems, and I would hardly compare it to blood letting, which you said your self is still used for some treatments, so there is even use for that.

 

[Kimberlee]

Which heavy metals exactly and what kinds of DOC?

he quarterly water report for your area will tell you which heavy metals you should be concered w/, as that is dependent on where you live and the water you have access too. As far as DOC, I think there's only one type of DOC as it all falls under the dissolved organic material description. I'm sorry this got me a little offended as I have chosen to read up on these subjects and don't feel our comunity is as uneducated(unintentionally, I'm sure) as is being implied here.

 

[GHill762]

I have to agree with FlyPenFly to an extent.. some of the most filled in and thriving tanks I've seen had monster refugiums and zero water changes.. one of the best examples is kgoldy over at nano reef (he tore his tank down because he was getting out of the hobby, but the tank was amazing).. and DOC encompasses a lot of different things.. some proteins, some not.. Kimberlee I think you are taking this the wrong way.. the hobby is continually changing, thought processes are continually changing.. what we know as fact today might be dismissed as incorrect and outdated in a few years..

 

[FlyPenFly]

Docs is a huge term. There's also docs that skimmers simply can't remove with fractionation.

 

[FlyPenFly]

With bloodletting new clean blood wasn't put back into the body.

How healthy is a person that requires a weekly or monthly blood transfusion? Would you recommend that for the general population? That would be crazy.

 

[Reefltx]

Idk, show me a colorful thriving matured SPS system. Until then I'll keep doing my weekly water changes.


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[ReefPiracy]

Its based on trace elements or things you don't test for. I just do it when I get time to it. I dose to maintain alk/cal/mag so I can go months without a water change. I get to the point where ive sold so many frags my salinity is getting low so I just do a water change to bring it back up. If you feel its not needed don't do it.

 

[Palting]

Water changes, while I do them, remind me a lot of blood letting.


Blood letting was medical practice #1 and everyone was Convinced it was the best thing to do for the vast majority of ailments for 2000 years. People just didn't understand what was going on with the body yet humongous volumes of medical literature was written about it's benefits and how it purifies the body.


Today, we do it for a very limited number of diseases and it's considered horribly counterproductive. We understand much better how the human body functions and we've grown past it. When for the most of human history, blood letting was considered an Of Course treatment, nowadays people are disgusted that humanity as a whole could have been so stupid.


I think reef keeping today, we're still in the blood letting stage of development. We don't really know what's going on, how different corals interact, how other symbiotic organisms work in a closed aquarium. So we don't really know any better so we're just going to remove everything by taking a arbitrary percentage of the water out at arbitrary intervals.


It's horribly unscientific yet we just don't really know any better. Examples of thriving reefs that don't do water changes are simply dismissed because nobody really knows what's going on and can't explain it easily. This is how just about everyone has been perpetuating this hobby.

Sorry, just ranting. I still do water changes myself.

LOL!! I think that drawing a parallel with water changes and blood letting is funny, and just not right. For it to be parallel, it would have to be blood letting and water removal, not water changes. Who here does water removal from their tanks as maintenance? LOL!!

If you want to draw a parallel with medical treatment, it would have to be water changes and exchange transfusion. Exchange transfusion is a modern rarely performed procedure, where toxemia has overwhelmed the body systems, and the only remaining treatment is to exchange the current blood with new blood. Or dialysis, where the excessive elements are removed, and the depleted elements are replenished. Now, that's a parallel!

How healthy is a person that requires a weekly or monthly blood transfusion? Would you recommend that for the general population? That would be crazy.

What's crazy, IMO, is comparing our tanks to a healthy person. For a comparison to a healthy person with all systems working, you would have to compare that human system to the ocean system. A perfectly healthy human will have healthy lungs, kidneys, livers working to keep him healthy, remove excess elements and replenish depleted ones. Just like a healthy ocean system. Our tank system, an itty bitty slice of the gigantic ocean system, cannot in any shape or form be compared to a self sustaining healthy person. Our tank system is a poor representative of the ocean, and requires active and continuous outside intervention by the aquarist to stay healthy. Same way with a human that has poorly functioning kidneys requires regular dialysis to stay alive, our tank generally requires water changes and other maintenance.

Now, if your point is that not all tanks require water changes, and that modern practices may one day make water changes obsolete, I may have to agree with you. There certainly are tanks that have been set up and can run healthy without water changes, but those would be rarities.

But, to equate water changes with blood letting? Nah, that's just wrong.

 

[ChristopherKriens]

While the analogy is poor, I do agree somewhat and think that some day water changes won't be part of regular maintenance.

 

[Pappy]

I think this comparison to blood letting by flypen is yet another example of apples to oranges. The human body is a magnificent machine we still know very little about and that is the only thing our tanks have in common.

Water changes are super important ime because we are trying to replicate the ocean with a very clean water environment. I think removing and replenishing does tons of things that we still are not aware of like removing bad bacteria for example. People are just now figuring out that by adding good bacteria it helps to remove bad bacteria but it's still very new. Science is always changing and maybe one day we won't need to do water changes but until experience has shown it's okay not to I will continue doing 20% bi weekly. Common sense is remove bad and replenish with good....duuuuhhhhhh am I missing something here?

Finally as stated above also I'd like one or 2 examples of a healthy sps tank that doesn't ever do water changes. And I mean sps tanks! Some dimwit recently created a thread why wc's aren't necessary and showed a tank that was full of herpes you could grow in a freakin toilet....but was so impressed that the guy hasn't done a wc in 10 years or whatever! Pffffttttttt sorry to be so cynical but like everything in life lately ignorance is bliss! GOBAMA with your health care plan that's working out so well (sarcastic as hell sorry just found out my blue cross and blue shield plan I have and offer my employees is expiring. Now I have to waste oxygen and re evaluate and setup new plan!)

I'm doneeeee for now lol

 

[GrampaDon]

So what is the point of this thread [besides stirring the pot] I cant find any noted / documented /well respected professional that would not perform regular WC.
So perhaps the OP should provide many scientific documented examples of why we should not do regular WCs.

Till then I call this pot stirring bs to start something. [similar to someone on the other site]:drama:

 

[FlyPenFly]

Look up DSR Dutch Synthetic Reefkeeping. Extremely SPS heavy system.

The point still stands, we do water changes because we don't really know what we're doing with captive reef systems. We have a rudimentary understanding of how to recreate a reef. If you look at microbial and plankton concentrations, its just something we can't recreate yet either.

 

[GrampaDon]

Glenn F ,Dutch reef hobist/author has a beutiful tank. [I dont speak Dutch so I will need to wait for the english book version]
Where does it or what is called DSR method say "we dont really know what we're doing" so we do this.?? While we dont understand fully the secrets of the ocean. We do know the value and purpose of water changes.
So why would you premise this about water changes are =Blood Letting rather than ask can we do better. Just saying...
Personally my hats off to Glenn. However I wouldnt do it if it was better understood. Water changing has a cause n effect beyond his tank and is no where in the same planet for the general hobbyist. Perhaps this Blood Letting topic was better suited to advanced categorys to explore it. ? Again just saying...

 

[Reefing Madness]

This water change debate is never going to change. If you Google "No Water Change SPS Tanks", you will get enough posts from all over the place showing that there are indeed enough tanks out there that don't do water changes.
Blood Letting aside, it can be done, with the correct equipment, and the Aquarist dosing properly, the system does not suffer.

 

[Pappy]

This water change debate is never going to change. If you Google "No Water Change SPS Tanks", you will get enough posts from all over the place showing that there are indeed enough tanks out there that don't do water changes.
Blood Letting aside, it can be done, with the correct equipment, and the Aquarist dosing properly, the system does not suffer.

Lots of posts and no pics with proof. Just went through 3 pages of google and not one.