Water Changes

[RobberyinCSharp1824]

These articles discuss organic carbon dosing:

Vodka Dosing by 'Genetics' and 'Stony_Corals' - Reefkeeping.com

Reefkeeping Magazine - Vinegar Dosing Methodology for the Marine Aquarium

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION

from the last one:

Organic Carbon Dosing


Organic carbon dosing involves adding a soluble organic compound to the aquarium which spurs bacterial growth. Typical organics used can be ethanol (as vodka), acetic acid (as vinegar), calcium acetate (as lime saturated vinegar), sugar (sucrose) and many others. Vodka and vinegar are by far the most popular. I use vinegar.


These organic molecules can be used by many organisms, including corals, but the main intent is to drive bacterial growth. To grow, the bacteria need a source of nitrogen and a source of phosphate, and a large portion of these they remove directly from the water. The bacteria may grow out of sight (inside live rock or sand, in refugia, in tubing, etc.). They may also grow in globs in the display tank. They have to grow somewhere. If they become unsightly, try dosing a different organic that may drive a different set of species that may grow in a different location. I’ve had them often seem to grow on GAC (granular activated carbon media) in a canister filter I previously used, allowing relatively easy export by rinsing the GAC once every couple of weeks.


I’ve never heard any plausible argument why dosing multiple organics at once is desirable, but many people do it and there is likely no harm in doing so. The idea that multiple organics drive a diversity of bacterial species is just speculation, and even if true, I don’t see the benefit.


The bacteria themselves can then be skimmed out, or used as a food for filter feeders, or both (most people probably have both to some extent, unless they do not use a skimmer). The bacteria may grow partly in low O2 regions (such as in sand or rock) and partly in highly oxygenated environments. Since metabolism in low O2 regions uses relatively more nitrate than phosphate compared to metabolism in a high O2 environment, the relative amounts of nitrate and phosphate reduction an aquarists observes may vary from system to system.


Nitrate is always reduced to a greater extent than phosphate simply because bacteria need a lot more nitrogen than phosphorus, but metabolism of organics in low O2 regions may skew it even more, and sometimes can leave the aquarium with little nitrate and an excess of phosphate that they bacteria don’t “wantâ€. In such a case, a phosphate binder might usefully export this remaining phosphate. Alternatively, some aquarists have dosed nitrate directly to the aquarium to allow the residual phosphate to be consumed.


These linked articles describe vinegar and vodka dosing in more detail.


One potential drawback that may have played a role in some tank problems is that the bacteria that thrive when organic molecules are dosed may be benign (and appear to be in almost all cases), but might actually be pathogenic in others. That is, the added organics may enhance bacterial infections if those bacteria causing the infection (of fish, corals, etc.) are able to take up the added organics and use them to grow faster. I think this risk is low, but it may be real. If you have unexplained problems that might fit this description, and are organic carbon dosing, try not dosing for an extended period.


A second potential drawback of organic carbon dosing is the potential for proliferation of unsightly cyanobacteria in the display tank. There are many species of cyanobacteria, and some can consume the organics we add in this method. If they become a primary consumer, then something may need to be done, such as switching to a different organic compound to dose, or reducing phosphate with a binder such as GFO (granular ferric oxide).

As Randy said above....
I used these readings for some background on it.. I used the chart on this link also on how to do it.
Vodka Dosing by 'Genetics' and 'Stony_Corals' - Reefkeeping.com

I started with a tiny amount, was like .3ML and used the instructions on going higher.
To be 100% honest i am up to 5ML a day and have not found the right dose to completely eliminate nitrate and phosphates all together.
They have gone down significantly but I am still raising the dose weekly to find the amount to get me to 0.

My wife assured me that it has been at least 5 months since my last change and i test the water every few days for nitrates, phosphates, calcium, Alk and Mag.
I have a reef seneye in there so it tells me Ammonia, 02, PH, and Temp at all times.
So i did a water change last night, 35 Gallons. My system is not automatic so i drag a 35 gal drum into the living room and siphon and then refill.
Wasnt bad, was done in about 20 mins.

Wow you guys rock! This post has been so informative and helpful! I've been looking for a solid dosing post for a while and this is definitely the best it's been.

 

[Meers]

Very nice post indeed. I am curious of which parameters are you checking when maintaining the system without water changes. Ca, Mg, All, N and P? Do you use any nutrient export method beside the Skimmer? Any additional complements? I am planning to setup my sump with bio pellets for C dosing, skimmer, bioballs, refugium and, finally, GFO to clear any last bits of P. I have a heavy load of fish and most definitely overfeed.... Don't like my fish to go underfeed....

 

[Eckolancer]

I test cal, alk, mag once a month or so. Also test phosphate and nitrate when I remember. I have started testing iron but not doing anything about it. Just monitoring what level it's at and how corals look.

 

[Z06-Hec]

I test calcium, Alkalinity, Nitrate and Phosphates at minimum 1 time a week sometimes 2 times a week.
I also have a reef seneye that tells me PH, NH3, NH4, O2... I mainly use it for the PH probe, when i see any drop i usually know my ALK dropped and i confirm with a test and when needed i will dose ALK and Calcium.
I am also running GFO in a canister and i run my Skimmer 24/7. I usually empty it every 2-4 days.
I also have my socks that get gunked up every week.
I do nothing more than this.

 

[Singlefin]

Very nice post indeed. I am curious of which parameters are you checking when maintaining the system without water changes. Ca, Mg, All, N and P? Do you use any nutrient export method beside the Skimmer? Any additional complements? I am planning to setup my sump with bio pellets for C dosing, skimmer, bioballs, refugium and, finally, GFO to clear any last bits of P. I have a heavy load of fish and most definitely overfeed.... Don't like my fish to go underfeed....

Skip the bio-balls. Were you going with a wet/dry sump? Live rock would probably be a better choice. Chaeto. Carbon & gfo reactor. Over sized skimmer.

 

[Meers]

Skip the bio-balls. Were you going with a wet/dry sump? Live rock would probably be a better choice. Chaeto. Carbon & gfo reactor. Over sized skimmer.

Hi Singlefin,

Thank you for the feedback.

I was planning to go with a simple denitrification process, no Wet/dry. My plan was to have as much Organics removed and then the remaining decomposed in the BioBalls for easy processing by the algae. Already using an oversized Skimmer, rated for 1400 liters (ca 370 US Gallons). My aquarim, including sump, has approximately 500 liters (ca 130 US Gallons)

 

[Meers]

Thank you Eckolancer and Z06-Hec. I also measure this elements on my aquarium, currently with a less than perfect frequence, as I just moved and a lot to do beside the maintenance of the aquarium... :S

My doubt is, without the water changes, don't we risk to have other detrimental composts acumulating in our systems? In other words, if we do not measure other composts that also influence our systems, don't we risk having them seriously umbalanced either by defect or by excess? Or is the influence of trace elements seriously overrated? Would like to know how are this maintained in a system without Water changes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Unless you use a very sophisticated method, like Triton (which even that doesn't test everything we care about), lack of water changes risks accumulation of some chemicals and depletion of others.

 

[Meers]

Unless you use a very sophisticated method, like Triton (which even that doesn't test everything we care about), lack of water changes risks accumulation of some chemicals and depletion of others.

Hi Randy,

Thanks for your answer. I suppose that perhaps for FOWLR or soft corals systems this could be more manageable as usually this are less demanding in terms of water parameters?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Maybe. I've not really seen any data on trace element (things like iron, copper, vanadium, molybdenum, etc.) needs of SPS vs soft corals.

 

[Reefcrazed417]

I have had better results doing water changes and dosing the basics

 

[joefishUC Verified Sponsor]

Unless you use a very sophisticated method, like Triton (which even that doesn't test everything we care about), lack of water changes risks accumulation of some chemicals and depletion of others.

Triton is actually one of the least sophisticated methods out there. The problem we are having here in the states for Triton is that of an identity crisis. People think that Triton is all about water testing and analyzing and dosing specific trace elements to be successful. The essence of the triton method is to streamline the aquarium equipment, additives, foods and maintenance procedures to minimize variables. Variables introduce unknowns. Unknowns lead to more unknowns and corrections. It takes from everything we have learned from in the past and mates that knowledge with very thoughtfully designed products using cutting edge technology. The triton method relies on creating an environment where nutrients, namely po4 and No3 are cycled in a very stable and reliable way- a large cheato filled refugium. Excess po4 are removed by a small reactor with gfo and aluminum based media. All the macro elements like Ca, Mg, Potassium as well as all the trace elements are dripped in (the single product called "Base elementz") via a doser daily and the fish are fed. I'm oversimplifying here but that really is pretty much it. Clean your skimmer and change out your carbon regularly and clean the algae off the glass. No water changes, minimal additives. That is the heart of the triton method. Tweaking of the trace elements for specific needs are done by experienced reefers but the baseline results for running the triton method as outlined above is designed to give the hobbyist consistent levels of macros and trace elements that would otherwise be had in a perfectly tuned reef using a reactor plus water changes or two part plus water changes and trace elements.

Triton saw the challenges faced by new reefers who were trying to maintain balanced levels of macros and traces but were always missing the mark. With this in mind and having access to an in house ICP machine, they set out to design a balanced additive that would replace all the macro elements that are normally found in a good two part regimen plus the trace elements supplemented via regular water changes. With the trace elements taken care of and the nutrients properly managed by other means (refugium, gfo, carbon, skimming, bacteria, etc) the inevitable result were to simply stop doing water changes. The tanks simply ran better without them. I am not saying everyone should stop doing water changes, you should only do what is best for your needs, but if you look at two relatively new methods like the DSM and Triton, both achieve balanced stable water conditions without having to rely on water changes. You don't NEED to use Triton testing to run the triton method. This has been the source of much of the confusion. Many, many tanks have been successfully run before triton proving that the actual values of trace elements are probably not worth paying too much attention too. People really benefit from the Triton testing to make sure they don't have extremely elevated levels of heavy metals or pollutants in their systems. The knowledge gained from performing a triton test is not to be confused with the knowledge needed to run a triton tank. They are two different things. =)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't know how you can claim that is not sophisticated compared to what most hobbyists do presently. It is certainly more sophisticated than what I do.

While on the topic, it also wouldn't simplify my trace element supplementing, since the two that I add that do not come in (or out) via water change are iron and silicate, two ions that are not readily "simplified" by the Triton method.

 

[Reefcrazed417]

Come on randy what do you think you are a chemist or something lol

 

[joefishUC Verified Sponsor]

Come on randy what do you think you are a chemist or something lol

I know right? He talks like he knows a thing or two about chemistry.. )

In all seriousness, I guess sophistication is open for interpretation. On one hand, the foundation of the Triton method is sophisticated to fully understand, but on the other hand, this sophistication results in a system that in my opinion is fairly easy and straightforward to replicate. No one method will fully compliment every tank design or philosophy out there. If someone wants to dose silicates or other things, well you certainly would have to branch off the core method to dose them. Iron is dosed daily with the Base Elementz but since the NSW concentration is lower than the detection limits of the ICP machine, the anticipated possible benefits of dosing iron above this daily amount is not something we recommend to the average hobbyist.

Regarding silicates, most triton tests around the world showed levels on tests that didn't compel Ehsan to add more of it to the base elementz. There just wasn't enough supporting evidence to warrant having people add it to their tanks every day. He loves new ideas and since you (Randy) are an advocate of silicates (I've read your articles on the subject and it does make a lot of sense to maintain higher levels than most people do) I think he will look into this topic more closely. I have read that sponge reproduction is thought to be a major component to the diet of acropora in captivity and it is this reason why acropora tanks seem to take a while to really kick in.

 

[eagle]

I noticed this same thing. My favorite tanks out there do pretty substantial water changes. Religiously.

 

[eagle]

Yes there's a lot of conspiracy around this subject and folks who claim they dont do water changes never show off the tank for that same reason the ones that do a lot of water changes end up on front page looking crazy 120g tank stocked to the rim needs minimum 50 g a month water change to keep things growing not barley holding on to their life

Sorry forgot to add your quote h2o

 

[eagle]

At $78 for the Triton set it's cheaper to just do water changes for me. That's 160 gallons of a reef salt mix. Even more if you're using IO. Sounds fairly similar to the balling method but by the time you buy 4 dosers (for someone using a calcium reactor) and the $78 for the Triton set, plus needing water analysis etc etc. Why not just change out some water. I have to agree with Randy that it's more than I want to deal with at the moment. Unless you just hate changing out water. I have mine automated like Randy so It's not a pain in the rear and I don't mind it.