Water too (NaCl) salty

[UK_Pete]

@Randy never realised dowflake contained potassium, thats interesting. If someone wanted to make their own perfect 2 part, which elements do you think are the ones that would need to be considered? Looking at seawater composition I had an attempt to select what I believe are the important ones:

Na, Cl, Mg, S, K, Ca, Br, B,

But which of these should be considered?

Si, Sr, I, Fe, Mn,

And should any of these be considered?

Li, F, Mo, Ba, Rb, Se, Cu, Zn, Ni, Co,
mcarroll it would be pretty easy to make the perfect 2 part with some of the above, but I don't know which are important and which not. I wonder if that might be a further 'advanced' update to Randys 2 part for the future? I think only 6 salts would be needed for the basics (in the first line of elements), and we already use 3 of them (the CaCl, MgCl and MgSO4).

 

[mcarroll]

I now know that UPG distributes Balling Part C in 1Kg packages. Any LFS should be able to get one for me (or anyone) to try.

Still, no decisions yet...will report back after next round of testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

To do trace elements in a two part, you need detailed trace element info on the main ingredients (or perhaps on the tank water), or else you may be making something worse by adding more.

I'd focus on all if the major and some of the minor ions.

 

[mcarroll]

Well I finally got around to retesting at home with my own kits and got 490 calcium and 2.28 meq/L alkalinity.

Specific gravity reads 1.029.

I caught up the alkalinity over the last 36 hours, so we'll see how it goes at the next test!

 

[mcarroll]

Got new Ca and Mg kits (Salifert).

After today's adjustment (and only having an Alkaliity kit since the last post), Alk is 2.91 meq/L. Both Ca and Mg are off the charts (again).

I haven't dosed anything specifically for Mg in quite a while...this result seems strange. I've been dosing nothing but kalk+vinegar (for alk and Ca) according to alk demand for the last week.

Since I did get a successful (high) calcium reading in post #24, I'll try just maintaining Alk (with the standard Recipe 2 baking soda solution) until Ca and Mg come into range.

 

[mcarroll]

[...]I wonder if that might be a further 'advanced' update to Randys 2 part[...]

FWIW, I think you're more-or-less describing Three Part...or the Balling Recipe (i.e. Tropic Marin Parts A, B and C):
[video]https://youtu.be/bZy7RS8kEag[/video]

The problem with DIY versions (which IIRC is the reason for Randy's Recipe in the first place) is that of all the ingredients, only baking soda and epsom salt are commonly available.

After you find some quality calcium carbonate (better availability in winter months), the rest of the ingredients, including the other Mg part, will require going significantly out of your way to get - if they aren't literally impossible to find. Perhaps do-able for a few, but it's not a recipe available or practical to everyone by any stretch.

For now I'm trying to stick with the kalk+vinegar route, but for simplicity I'm going to try Tropic Marin's "Bio Calcium" version of it....hoping for more consistent, predictable results (and less time spent) from what I've been mixing. I'll be relying on a commercial Mg supplement (Brightwell) as well.

 

[JimWelsh]

After you find some quality calcium carbonate

Mcarroll, I believe you mean calcium chloride.

ESV B-Ionic claims to be an ionically balanced 2-part system. And, yes, the full Balling method is another approach to dealing with this issue. There is a calculator for figuring out the imbalance of any given ion as a result of two-part dosing over time that can be found here: Two-Part Imbalance Calculator

I, too, understand mcarroll's question to be how to address not only the salinity issue, but more specifically, the ionic imbalance.

If mcarroll has been using all three parts of Randy's "Two-Part", then Na, Cl, Mg, and SO4 are being kept in balance. Assuming the NaHCO3, CaCl2, MgCl2, and MgSO4 used to make up the solutions are 100% pure (not likely, as Randy already said), then of the Major Components of seawater, K, Sr, Br, B(OH)3, and F are going to be in relative short supply, such that if you just brought salinity down by removing tank water and replacing it with RO/DI, then these components will be lower than NSW levels by the appx. 7.5% that Randy calculated. Since the NaCl-free salt mixes do contain Mg and SO4 in proportion to these other components, using such a product to address the issue will cause another imbalance: Too much Mg and too much SO4.

It seems that the main imbalance that might need to be corrected would be a shortage of K, but that is dependent upon how much K is present as an impurity in Dowflake (or whatever CaCl2 source you are using). If I were you, I'd just test for K, and dose KCl as necessary, if you find you are deficient after the salinity reduction using RO/DI.

 

[mcarroll]

Mcarroll, I believe you mean calcium chloride.[...]

You are correct!

You are also correct - outside of a one-time adjustment the NaCl-free mix won't do it. I'm leaning toward Tropic Marin's Part C anyway, due to better availability....which will include the Mg, but at least not the Ca or carbonates. It would just be dosed as the Mg part.

And, whoa! As if someone listened to my "...it's 2015" complaint about ESV's website being nothing but a link to a PDF of a brochure ESV HAS A NEW WEBSITE!

 

[that Reef Guy]

I don't know anything about how suitable these products are, but you need to remove about 7.5% of the tank volume to drop the salinity, so adding enough of these products to make that volume should add back what is lost.

That assumes the two part added nothing but NaCl, and that is likely not correct.

So 7.5 percent to drop it to 1.025 from 1.027

Or 3.75 percent to drop it to 1.026

So to drop any tank 1 point you need to get rid of 3.75 percent of the water?

Is that correct?

Good info to know.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So 7.5 percent to drop it to 1.025 from 1.027

Or 3.75 percent to drop it to 1.026

So to drop any tank 1 point you need to get rid of 3.75 percent of the water?

Is that correct?

Good info to know.

When you are around seawater salinity, yes.

But the amount needed to drop 1 "point" gets higher as the salinity gets lower.

For example, to drop from 1.002 to 1.001 needs a 50% change with RO/DI.

 

[that Reef Guy]

When you are around seawater salinity, yes.

But the amount needed to drop 1 "point" gets higher as the salinity gets lower.

For example, to drop from 1.002 to 1.001 needs a 50% change with RO/DI.

I see.

Good to know.

As always you are a wealth of great useful knowledge.

Thanks Randy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks!

Happy Reefing.

 

[mcarroll]

Just measured 2.97 meq/L with Ca off the charts again....registered a slight change to blue with the last drip. Specific gravity is up to 1.029.

So, I removed 5 gallons of water from the tank (~5%) and replaced with RODI. Will retest again later after s.g. is in line.

 

[mcarroll]

Now reading s.g. 1.0255 after swapping a second 5 gallons of tank water with RODI. More testing later!

 

[mcarroll]

2.22 meq/L alkalinity
455 Ca
1350 Mg



So apparently the issue with Ca and Mg readings being off the charts was related to salinity - not excess NaCl.

(Actual levels may be elevated too, but will have to retest again after raising alkalinity to 3.0'ish to know for sure.)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Sounds good.

Happy Reefing.

 

[mcarroll]

Seems like things are back on track, at least by the numbers:

s.g. 1.025
alk 2.91 meq/L
Ca 440

Maybe tomorrow or the next day it looks like I'll be able to resume dosing for calcium. (Which will be Tropic Marin Bio Calcium.)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Remember that tropic Marin Biocalcium adds alkalinity too.

 

[mcarroll]

...plus vinegar too! Should be a winning combo.

 

[mcarroll]

So now that I've learned that I was confusing BioCalcium with Salifert's All In One for some reason, let's continue.

After being a bit more fastidious in my record keeping, I seem to have confirmed that the BioCalcium is delivering less alkalinity than expected. Today I have to make another alk-only adjustment, when by the numbers I should be balanced by now.

Either there is settling/sorting in the BioCalcium container and I've simply been dosing more Ca than alk (product seems very uniform, but I gave it a good tumble just in case) or the alk is precipitating out in the container (humidity) or in the tank. So far I haven't seen any signs of precipitation in the tank...no excessive clouding around the dissolving crystals, or in the tank in general...so I'm feeling a bit at a loss. I may re-test Mg when I have time again later, but it should be OK. Am I forgetting other possible explanations? Other thoughts, anyone?