Water volume expansion reservoir?

[BeanAnimal]

If this connection with you can be salvaged, then I would prefer that to blocking you.

That is 100% up to you to decide. The internet is a big place, much of it shared with people you do not agree with. You are free to choose how you handle it.

To that end, let me try this again. Explain to me how this specific configuration of sump, lid, insulation, and box is different in nature to your specific configuration of weir, standpipe, siphon, and valve? It's not, and you know it. I do not believe that you can answer that question.

I have answered that question. I simply elected not to get into minutia about criteria that are not relevant and that is where you kept heading with your demand of 'proof'.

I know it's a sump. I know. I get it. You made your point. You win. People are still going to ask me stuff, I'm still going to respond to them.

I'm not just asserting stuff as selling points to try and con money out of people or something. People keep asking me questions. "Why not build a bigger sump?", "Why not build a bigger display?" , "Why do you want to use insulation?", etc, etc.

I think everyone is trying to help you but you really appear to be trying to defend a position which most of us don't see and doing so by trying to differentiate things that are pretty much the same thing just worded differently.

I think everyone who has responded is certainly in favor of adding system volume where possible. In your case, in the apartment, putting your added volume next to the tank and hiding in a box is a fabulous plan. I think most people were simply trying to advise against the sealed top part... it serves no purpose other than to be a headache for plumbing and for maintenance.

I think most people also read the "new house" part and suggested just simply added a larger or remote sump instead of complicating the setup with daisy chained sumps.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

I have answered that question. I simply elected not to get into minutia about criteria that are not relevant and that is where you kept heading with your demand of 'proof'.

You asserted that your configuration was novel because it was novel, and my configuration was not novel because it was not novel. Then later said that because the differences between my configuration and others were cosmetic and not functional. (paraphrased)

I pointed out that each part served a purpose, including the cosmetic parts such as the box. It's purpose is to hide the water volume in an apartment.

We can agree to disagree, but you haven't proven your case at all.

Do you believe that configurations are only new if they accomplish a goal that has never been accomplished before? There is no such thing as a new configuration that accomplishes the same thing as something else?

I think everyone is trying to help you but you really appear to be trying to defend a position which most of us don't see and doing so by trying to differentiate things that are pretty much the same thing just worded differently.

I don't want 'help'. I want to explore ideas, identify weaknesses, bolster strengths. I'm not 'defending' a position so much as I'm trying to communicate what my position is.

I think everyone who has responded is certainly in favor of adding system volume where possible. In your case, in the apartment, putting your added volume next to the tank and hiding in a box is a fabulous plan. I think most people were simply trying to advise against the sealed top part... it serves no purpose other than to be a headache for plumbing and for maintenance.

Thanks you for the complimentary part of this quote. People have expressed to me why they think it would be a headache, and I've expressed in return why I personally am not as concerned as they are.

I think most people also read the "new house" part and suggested just simply added a larger or remote sump instead of complicating the setup with daisy chained sumps.

Yes, this was a concern directed at me (repeatedly), and again it is probably the right choice for someone who isn't me. My personal goals don't align with that course of action. So I explained why I don't want to do it for myself. I'm not saying that bigger tanks or bigger sumps are bad. They're just not what I want.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You asserted that your configuration was novel because it was novel, and my configuration was not novel because it was not novel. Then later said that because the differences between my configuration and others were cosmetic and not functional. (paraphrased)

Why are we we are back to this now? You said you understood it is just a sump. My friend, you can put a lidded insulated sump in a box and paint “Erasmus Sump” on it and use the box as a cutting board or plant stand. The function of the sump does not change. It may be unique in cosmetic appearance and 100% cool and your idea and concept… but it is a sump with a kid and insulation. That is all. This has nothing to do with my overflow or anything else. We don’t appear to be able to move on from that point for some reason.

I pointed out that each part served a purpose, including the cosmetic parts such as the box. It's purpose is to hide the water volume in an apartment.

We can agree to disagree, but you haven't proven your case at all.

You are confusing form with function. Many of us are offering advice on function, we don’t care about the form/aesthetics, they don’t matter to the function. I think that is where the disconnect is.

I don't want 'help'. I want to explore ideas, identify weaknesses, bolster strengths. I'm not 'defending' a position so much as I'm trying to communicate what my position is.

You have in essence told very responder in this thread that they are wrong because they don’t understand. They (we) do understand and and offering thoughts and advice on ways to add system volume.

In the end, you do what makes you happy. Everyone here is simply trying to have a conversation with you that you started.

Decide on the volume you want and I will help you pick a container and with the plumbing design.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

My friend, you can put a lidded insulated sump in a box and paint “Erasmus Sump” on it and use the box as a cutting board or plant stand. The function of the sump does not change. It may be unique in cosmetic appearance and 100% cool and your idea and concept… but it is a sump with a kid and insulation. That is all. This has nothing to do with my overflow or anything else. We don’t appear to be able to move on from that point for some reason.

Read back through this thread. I never referred to this design as an "Erasmus" anything. Other people did that. The only thing I said about it was that I found that comment amusing. I don't deserve any of the blame for that. I've consistently called it a reservoir, a cistern, and even a sump.

Is that what this is about? You think that I named this thing, but you don't think this deserves a name, so you're going to shut me down before I get too big for my britches?

I didn't name it though. I don't care at all what people call this setup as long as I get to discuss it. You started us down the rabbit hole of whether or not this is 'new' enough to satisfy your definition of 'new'.

And I'm stuck on it because I'm stubborn.

Here's my perspective.

In a shuffled deck of cards there are 80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000-ish possible permutations that the ordering of the cards might take.

Any single time you shuffle cards, you are almost certainly creating a novel permutation. If I shuffled a deck of cards, and someone decided to name that specific ordering of cards the "Erasmus Deck".... Then it would be totally legitimate for them to do. Pointless, but still legitimate. If someone said, "That's NOT a unique combination of cards!", then it naturally follows that I would ask the accuser where they had seen that combination before. The accuser saying, "I've seen other decks of cards with arrangements, therefore this isn't a new combination" just isn't a sound argument.

That arrangement of cards might not be useful, and maybe no one ever cares cards were ever arranged that way. You might have been using those exact cards for decades. But each combination is by definition 'novel' if that combination has never existed before.

So tell me it's not useful. Tell me it's a bad idea. Those are all great discussions that I'd love to have. If you're saying that you've seen someone else do this exact thing before, then tell me because I want to hear about it. If you haven't seen this exact thing before, then admit that maybe it is a novel permutation. Just maybe not a useful one in your opinion.

You are confusing form with function. Many of us are offering advice on function, we don’t care about the form/aesthetics, they don’t matter to the function. I think that is where the disconnect is.

I've gone into depth about the specific functions that I really want to execute on. Maybe it would help if I listed them formally?

I realize that maybe not all of these are possible, and not all of them maybe be possible in combination with each other. But I want to get as close as I can. I still think that the idea in my first post gets me very, very close to accomplishing all of them. Which is why I really want to know if someone has done it before.

* Expand water volume to slow chemistry changes
* No additional equipment
* No additional livestock
* No additional maintenance work
* No additional ongoing expenses
* Not visible to visitors

People keep offering solutions that fail to fulfill one or more of those functions. When I offer pushback, I'm trying to draw attention to the functions that their suggestions do not seem able to accomplish.

The form matters because the form IS a function that has significant value to me. It's not separable from the functions.

You have in essence told very responder in this thread that they are wrong because they don’t understand. They (we) do understand and and offering thoughts and advice on ways to add system volume.

Many people have. And I truly appreciate them. My responses are not intended to communicate disrespect or to tell them that they "don't understand". If someone feels that way, then I really do deeply apologize to them.

People are probing various parts of my plan to see if it has weaknesses, and I really enjoy that. So in my responses I'm pushing on their criticisms to see if their suggestions hold more water. I never meant to be hurtful.

Decide on the volume you want and I will help you pick a container and with the plumbing design.

Thank you. It might take a while, but don't be surprised if you get a message from me linking you to this comment long after you've forgotten about it.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

... words...

I think that I understand our disconnect.

I believed that "new" and "novel" were synonyms for one another.

After consulting with the wisdom of the internet, I realize that "novel" isn't exactly the same as new. It carries more weight, as it implies that it is interesting, strange, or unprecedented.

While I do think that "interesting" is a subjective argument, it is because it's subjective that there was nothing wrong with you saying that you didn't find it novel, since you were basically saying that you didn't think it was interesting.

In that case, fair enough. It's not up to me to decide what you think is interesting.

I want to apologize for not understanding what you were trying to tell me. I didn't have the correct definition of the word, and I misunderstood.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Read back through this thread. I never referred to this design as an "Erasmus" anything.

I never said you did. It was a mentioned as part of an example to illustrate form vs function.

If you haven't seen this exact thing before, then admit that maybe it is a novel permutation. Just maybe not a useful one in your opinion.

You can put in a box built of Lego’s and add neon lights and add a bottle opener. It is still just a sump in a box with a lid and insulation. It may be cool and unique and your design, but it is just a sump. The sump gains no new function or properties. That is the only point I was trying to make all along.

It may be so cool that everyone wants one and you get rich selling them... the “Erasmus Neon Sump and Bar”

I've gone into depth about the specific functions that I really want to execute on. Maybe it would help if I listed them formally?

* Expand water volume to slow chemistry changes
* No additional equipment
* No additional livestock
* No additional maintenance work
* No additional ongoing expenses
* Not visible to visitors

So, a sump
We all got that part and what you are trying to do. Your idea for your apartment is great. Hide it in a box beside the stand. In a new house that would be fine as well, but I think people were trying to point out that there were other (to them) more functional and easier options.

As I said, decide the volume and/or dimensions of the box you want to hide it in and we can help you pick a suitable container and plumbing that will be safe and quiet For your given return pump size. Insulation may or may not be needed depending on you avg room temperature. That math is easy enough too.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Again, i is a sump with insulation and a lid. You can put in a box built of Lego’s and add neon lights and a bottle opener. It is still just a sump in a box with a lid and insulation. It may be unique and your design, but it (sigh) is just a sump. The sump gains no new function or properties.

Omg.

When have I ever said that it isn't a sump??? It's obviously a sump. You're right. You win this point by default because I've never tried to debate this point. Ever.

You're putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and then telling me that I'm wrong to have said them. I didn't say what you're telling me that I said.

I want to read specifically about someone using a box with legos, neon lights, and a bottle opener. I want to read about that. Please link me to that so that I can learn from them. That's what I'm interested in. Let me be interested in it. Stop being the idea police.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Decide the volume and/or dimensions of the box you want to hide it in and we can help you pick a suitable container and plumbing that will be safe and quiet for your given return pump size. Insulation may or may not be needed depending on your avg room temperature. That math is easy enough too.

what type of overflow and plumbing do you have now and what is the height from the floor to the water line of the display and height to the waterline of the current sumps input chamber. What is the height above floor to the rim of the sump.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Decide the volume and/or dimensions of the box you want to hide it in and we can help you pick a suitable container and plumbing that will be safe and quiet for your given return pump size. Insulation may or may not be needed depending on your avg room temperature. That math is easy enough too.

what type of overflow and plumbing do you have now and what is the height from the floor to the water line of the display and height to the waterline of the current sumps input chamber.

I am planning on gathering that information for you, but I'm going to be a work most of the day today. I have bits of free time to type quick responses once in a while throughout the day, but not enough time to take measurements and type a detailed explanation of my system. So you probably won't see it until this evening.

 

[TokenReefer]

This thread... Is entertaining

 

[TokenReefer]

So you agree it's a sump... Getting back to your question (with that in mind), yeah, it'll add water volume obviously. Extrapolating from there I think the consensus was that having it sealed was not a good idea... What was the question again? Maybe I have it wrong

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

So you agree it's a sump... Getting back to your question (with that in mind), yeah, it'll add water volume obviously. Extrapolating from there I think the consensus was that having it sealed was not a good idea... What was the question again? Maybe I have it wrong

Yea. Apparently something about the definition of a sump means that it can't also be a reservoir or a cistern. You must only use the word sump, and not any other words related to the storage of water. I haven't figured out why yet, but boy have I been thoroughly schooled on it.

Anyways...

I had two questions in the first post.

The first was "Are there potential problems that I don't see?" To which the "sealed is bad" opinion is a totally valid answer.

The second was, "Has anyone built a 'sump' similar to the one that I was describing?". And the answer to that seems to be that many people have done quite similar things to accomplish similar goals, but no one has made all the choices that I would make and actually shared it online.

Apparently I think in a really weird way and it's pants-on-head cuckoo-bananas for someone to want a larger water volume for stability without seizing the opportunity to buy a bigger tank. So building a system in this way is silly, and my goals and priorities are better accomplished by changing both my goals, and my priorities.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Keep in mind that the taller the container the more challenging flow will be due to minimal head height to drive overflow’s water into the bottom of your container.

Consideration: nearly stagnant water or one that has large pockets of stagnation. Gas exchange does not occur and nasty things can start to grow. The settling detritus in the stagnant water can also create some nasty problems. It is not inconceivable that in a low flow situation like this that weird stuff like pounds of weird bacterial slime can build up.

You drew an image earlier in the thread, but concept will need to be adjusted to make the flow pattern work. That will depend on your return pump size to start.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Keep in mind that the taller the container the more challenging flow will be due to minimal head height to drive overflow’s water into the bottom of your container.

Interesting. I think I have a working (but still novice) understanding of head pressure from the pump to the display. However, I really have no mental model for how head pressure works on water falling through a pipe.

Consideration: nearly stagnant water or one that has large pockets of stagnation. Gas exchange does not occur and nasty things can start to grow. The settling detritus in the stagnant water can also create some nasty problems. It is not inconceivable that in a low flow situation like this that weird stuff like pounds of weird bacterial slime can build up.

That's a solid point. The last couple of times this came up I overlooked just how large the oxygen consumption of the trapped detritus could get if it did build up over time. Hydrogen sulfide production would be a less than ideal possible outcome. I hadn't even considered slime layers.

You drew an image earlier in the thread, but concept will need to be adjusted to make the flow pattern work. That will depend on your return pump size to start.

I believe that it's an Eheim 1200. Which google says is 320 gph.

 

[BeanAnimal]

. However, I really have no mental model for how head pressure works on water falling through a pipe.

The same gravitational acceleration as anything else minus and the resistance caused by trapped air. A full pipe‘s gravitational flow is calculated using Bernoulli’s equation with a term for friction and turbulence (Reynolds’s Number). The longer the drop (distance between the tops of the two pools in this case) the more the flow.

 

[SpyC]

Sounds like a convoluted way to have an empty refugium

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Sounds like a convoluted way to have an empty refugium

If there's one thing that I've learned in this thread, it's that you're describing a sump. An empty refugium is just a sump. We don't use descriptions for containers of water in this thread.

 

[BeanAnimal]

If there's one thing that I've learned in this thread, it's that you're describing a sump. An empty refugium is just a sump. We don't use descriptions for containers of water in this thread.

You can call it anything you wish. The function is what is established. You can call a seagull a flying rat, or Bob, but he is still a seagull, even if he is dyed blue and wears a hat.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

You can call it anything you wish. The function is what is established. You can call a seagull a flying rat, or Bob, but he is still a seagull, even if he is dyed blue and wears a hat.

Was I ever less than perfectly clear about the function that this "sump" served?

And just to be more clear... I have your permission to use the words "cistern" and/or "reservoir"? (because apparently I need your permission or you'll never stop).

 

[BeanAnimal]

Was I ever less than perfectly clear about the function that this "sump" served?

May I suggest reading from page one? You expended a tremendous amount of energy trying to differentiate its function and purpose. If you hadn’t this thread would be one page.

And just to be more clear... I have your permission to use the words "cistern" and/or "reservoir"? (because apparently I need your permission or you'll never stop).

You are certainly a rather combative unit. It makes conversations and helping hard. If you run off all of the help you will have to build the Erasmus Neon Cistern and Bar all on your own. I am sure you will get it sorted out though.

As well, I am not sure how you expect to keep firing off wisecrack remarks and not elicit a response?