We are all suckers!

[HomebroodExotics]

This, right here, was put perfectly.

No it's literally the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Blaming todays generation for the things that your own generation put in place is insane quite honestly.

 

[LetsPlayNice]

No it's literally the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Blaming todays generation for the things that your own generation put in place is insane quite honestly.

Do we really need to place blame. Can't we all just respect each other's beliefs and move on from this troll thread. I believe this thread has more than ran it's course.

 

[LetsPlayNice]

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Do we really need to place blame. Can't we all just respect each other's beliefs and move on from this troll thread. I believe this thread has more than ran it's course.

Respect my beliefs then?

 

[LetsPlayNice]

Respect my beliefs then?

He didn't specifically call anyone out like you, or directly not show you respect. His was a general comment on which he specifically didn't quote a post to not incite more drama than this thread already needs.

So agree to disagree and move on with reefing. Not just you, but everyone inviting more debate in this thread.

 

[Sean_B]

subjectivity potentially leads to objectivity if civil discourse is applied/allowed.

when 99 out of 100 people apply subjectivity to a conversation, there is still a chance that ZERO objectivity or even fairness not to mention truth or validity is reached.

Regurgitation is rampant, and has NO implication to validity what so ever. this includes masses. if 100 potentially incorrect minds spill over to 1,000,000 minds they are basically all incorrect.

*I love fish and the R2R community, lots to learn. tanks equal relaxation!

 

[Korkuc36]

Does anyone else feel like we are all getting ripped off buy reef lighting manufacturers??
I mean really! It doesn’t cost the company any more money to produce the spectrum LED’s that we require vs the white LED’s you can buy in a shop light for instance!
I picked up two of these 24”x16” lights with a decent design and full of LED’s from front to back and it cost $99 each!
All it would take is instead of all white LED’s if there where blues mixed in it, it would be a great reef light!
Now I know there’s gonna be a bunch of lighting experts chiming in with their two cents saying “this cost more or that cost more, the LEDs are different they’re more expensive”
I’m not buying any of it! It would be a very minimal increase to do what we require for reefs versus what they do for a shop lights!
The fact that we all spend top dollar on these lights nowadays is just ridiculous!
$1000 per light, in comparison to the size shop light I got for $99.

I spent 120 on my pop blooms with a built in timer and my 75g sps reef loves it. I feel exactly like you do which is why I refuse to spend more than a few hundred bucks on lights when you simply do not have to. (My personal opinion of course) oh and my ritteri loves it.

 

[ChuckTownReefer]

If I had a product I would sell it for as much as people are willing to pay for it and don't say you wouldn't either. If a product comes out and it doesn't sell well because of price it always gets a price drop. I personally don't think it's the company's to blame on the prices of equipment. It's everyone in the hobby who is paying those prices.

 

[ReeferSamster]

Do we really need to place blame. Can't we all just respect each other's beliefs and move on from this troll thread. I believe this thread has more than ran it's course.

If you don't like the thread then don't participate in it. Sure there are troll posts or heated debates, but I find this thread interesting. If you are sick of it, then move along. Different strokes for different folks. This is why its called a forum of a community of people. I'm sincerely being honest and with all due respect:

 

[Sean_B]

If I had a product I would sell it for as much as people are willing to pay for it and don't say you wouldn't either. If a product comes out and it doesn't sell well because of price it always gets a price drop. I personally don't think it's the company's to blame on the prices of equipment. It's everyone in the hobby who is paying those prices.

understood. so blame the hobbyist? if anyone is to blame its conformist that play the game, sometimes I'm a conformist, I'm not pointing a finger.

most markets are not defined by volume but rather the highest denomination.

If 2% of the reefing hobbyist are ok paying $xxx, and the actual cost of production is $x or maybe even $.x then again there in lies the debate of are "we all all suckers"

I think we are all suckers, the new American dream isn't a wife a house and a dog anymore, there is an "Instant Gratification" variable that applies to everything! consequently, we are suckers of varying levels

 

[Peace River]

R2R was founded on the simple premise to develop a warm, friendly, suitable place to gather and discuss this hobby for people of all ages, backgrounds, and experience levels. The “Be Nice” policy is something we take very seriously. This can be especially challenging when we perceive trolling activity - please work to separate the problem from the people and focus on addressing the problem.

We highly encourage healthy debate here and understand not everyone will agree on all issues. In fact, we value healthy and even lively discussion of hobby issues and questions...this actually leads to advancements in our hobby, so we ALL win through these debates. What we will not tolerate is the negativity, name calling, belittling attitude towards other members or the topics being discussed. We are not asking you to cease debating your positions. What we are asking is that you do so in a healthy, respectful manner.

 

[ninjamyst]

We are paying for stupid apps. I am perfectly fine with cheap lighting like smatfarm or nicrew.

 

[ReeferSamster]

most markets are not defined by volume but rather the highest denomination.

Please, read this with an open mind and view the larger scope.
Continuing this premise in the quote above, darwism in our hobby gets skewed.
As what I consider a hobby that requires some basic intelligence, lets hypothesize that a long long time ago (in a galaxy far far away.. ;Woot), reefers with the most intelligence and curiosity led the way for discovery and pioneering new methods, and techniques.

Now imagine reefing hobby to be dictated purely by the highest financial denomination instead of fair volume, which we are on that track. Not the smartest, or wisest reefers. But the reefers who have the deeper pockets, who could be idiots. (Not saying anyone is an idiot. This is a hypothetical example.)

The basics of a skimmer hasn't changed since its invention, except for mechanical water pumps. Literally. Yet the costs have risen 1000%. Fanboys and sheeple are buying them at the increased costs so innovation isn't driving this market anymore. Nothing except profit is driving this market, which should be innovation. I believe the reason the skimmer market has not evolved beyond what it could have, is because it was led by profiteering.

When you make the financial denominator the primary reason, you will lose potential innovation and real objective voice and perspective. Money always creates bias wherever it lays its greedy hands on.
Real gurus such as @Dana Riddle are not as famous as retailers that sell brandnames in terms of research and reviews. More people know about lighting from a retailer that sells brandnames of lighting than actual 3rd party non biased reefers. Isn't this concerning?

 

[Sean_B]

Please, read this with an open mind and view the larger scope.
Continuing this premise in the quote above, darwism in our hobby gets skewed.
As what I consider a hobby that requires some basic intelligence, lets hypothesize that a long long time ago (in a galaxy far far away.. ;Woot), reefers with the most intelligence and curiosity led the way for discovery and pioneering new methods, and techniques.

Now imagine reefing hobby to be dictated purely by the highest financial denomination instead of fair volume, which we are on that track. Not the smartest, or wisest reefers. But the reefers who have the deeper pockets, who could be idiots. (Not saying anyone is an idiot. This is a hypothetical example.)

The basics of a skimmer hasn't changed since its invention, except for mechanical water pumps. Literally. Yet the costs have risen 1000%. Fanboys and sheeple are buying them at the increased costs so innovation isn't driving this market anymore. Nothing except profit is driving this market, which should be innovation. I believe the reason the skimmer market has not evolved beyond what it could have, is because it was led by profiteering.

When you make the financial denominator the primary reason, you will lose potential innovation and real objective voice and perspective. Money always creates bias wherever it lays its greedy hands on.
Real gurus such as @Dana Riddle are not as famous as retailers that sell brandnames in terms of research and reviews. More people know about lighting from a retailer that sells brandnames of lighting than actual 3rd party non biased reefers. Isn't this concerning?

i think you are tapping into yet more variables, e.g., convenience and "known/reliable" companies. that's when subjectivity and objectivity collide to make a concrete decision.

i prefer "brainwashed" over "Darwish" in applications like this

very good debate............,

open mindedness is GOOD!

 

[Spicy Reef]

It would be interesting if someone in the know could do an article on "apples" to "apples" as much as is possible freshwater vs reef. I've grown coral with freshwater leds, I've homed reef fish with freshwater tanks, I wonder the cost of macro algae compared to freshwater plants. my 150g is still under 1k... not including corals!
I do crack up a bit when I see a beautiful $$$ rimless tank that has lid/net on it and some giant light apparatus above it...

I do believe there is a different demographic in each hobby.
Or maybe I'm truly out of my depth

 

[HomebroodExotics]

It would be interesting if someone in the know could do an article on "apples" to "apples" as much as is possible freshwater vs reef. I've grown coral with freshwater leds, I've homed reef fish with freshwater tanks, I wonder the cost of macro algae compared to freshwater plants. my 150g is still under 1k... not including corals!
I do crack up a bit when I see a beautiful $$$ rimless tank that has lid/net on it and some giant light apparatus above it...

I do believe there is a different demographic in each hobby.
Or maybe I'm truly out of my depth

The freshwater hobby is about the animals and often breeding the animals. Having lots of tanks and stuff like that. You wont do that with 500 or 1000 dollar lights. The saltwater hobby is more about having the "gear". People literally think in this hobby that if you DON'T buy the most expensive gear available then you are basically neglecting your precious corals and saltwater fish. The emphasis isn't on the science or teaching about the basics. It's all about selling that cool new gear and shaming people that don't participate in that. Just my opinion. I've done freshwater for a very long time and just getting in salt for the past 2 years or so.

 

[Korkuc36]

The freshwater hobby is about the animals and often breeding the animals. Having lots of tanks and stuff like that. You wont do that with 500 or 1000 dollar lights. The saltwater hobby is more about having the "gear". People literally think in this hobby that if you DON'T buy the most expensive gear available then you are basically neglecting your precious corals and saltwater fish. The emphasis isn't on the science or teaching about the basics. It's all about selling that cool new gear and shaming people that don't participate in that. Just my opinion. I've done freshwater for a very long time and just getting in salt for the past 2 years or so.

Yup. I had an old tank in the past with HOB equipment. Somebody said I was a newb and didn't know what I was doing and blah blah blah. But apparently he failed to see all the big sps and my ritteri thriving. Gotta love it.

 

[Dcloser12]

Does anyone else feel like we are all getting ripped off buy reef lighting manufacturers??
I mean really! It doesn’t cost the company any more money to produce the spectrum LED’s that we require vs the white LED’s you can buy in a shop light for instance!
I picked up two of these 24”x16” lights with a decent design and full of LED’s from front to back and it cost $99 each!
All it would take is instead of all white LED’s if there where blues mixed in it, it would be a great reef light!
Now I know there’s gonna be a bunch of lighting experts chiming in with their two cents saying “this cost more or that cost more, the LEDs are different they’re more expensive”
I’m not buying any of it! It would be a very minimal increase to do what we require for reefs versus what they do for a shop lights!
The fact that we all spend top dollar on these lights nowadays is just ridiculous!
$1000 per light, in comparison to the size shop light I got for $99.

Well it goes like this, you can buy a used pinto for 1000$, a Lamborghini for $800,000 or a bicycle for $100. All accomplish the same goal but the value resides in the buyer and if you pay for something knowing you have cheaper options then you are not being ripped off, youre making and informed decision to buy an expensive light.

 

[Spicy Reef]

Well it goes like this, you can buy a used pinto for 1000$, a Lamborghini for $800,000 or a bicycle for $100. All accomplish the same goal but the value resides in the buyer and if you pay for something knowing you have cheaper options then you are not being ripped off, youre making and informed decision to buy an expensive light.

ur scenario is not fair. Lamborghini is by far a much better vehicle than the other two...

Why Do Lamborghinis Cost So Much? - Road & Garage

Lamborghinis are flashy and flamboyant hypercars. They draw attention wherever they are, and many consider them to be one of the best cars in the world. But many people still wonder why Lamborghinis cost so much. Lamborghinis cost so much for many reasons. Firstly, they are built from high...

flowracers.com

the leds are about the same IMHO

 

[Jeeperz]

I spent 120 on my pop blooms with a built in timer and my 75g sps reef loves it. I feel exactly like you do which is why I refuse to spend more than a few hundred bucks on lights when you simply do not have to. (My personal opinion of course) oh and my ritteri loves it.

I tried digging up info on the pop blooms but couldn't get anywhere also started a thread. Please PM with your experience on these. I have 4 ai lights and although made in America supposedly they are not very good quality as 2 have failed in just over a year and no warranty but they want to sell me new lights at a discount, I think not for something that may last 2 years again before failure