We Should Vote With Our Wallets!!!

[gcarroll]

But that should be a given and expected because that's what you're paying for. But it's when that high priced gear fails almost as frequently or is just ridiculously priced for what it is. I know in your position you shouldn't single out specific items, but there are those that don't deserve the asking price.

I mean two powerheads for $1,300? That's almost insulting. Something on that price level should not need replacement parts and SHOULD last the life of your tank. That's the level of quality that should justify that premium price. There has to be something besides a name making the product worth it's cost. That's what I was trying to bring to peoples' attention. Not to keep supporting overpriced items, or items that don't back up the asking price with performance.

It's almost like we've become indoctrinated to accept that certain brands are automatically the best, regardless of quality.

So say I'm looking for a 7500 gph pump, what are the other options out there?

IMO, quality has nothing to do with the price of the MP60.

 

[Forsaken77]

Well, given all of the scary stories that I’ve read about the popular Jebao dosers, I could say that THEY are overpriced. One must add in the TOTAL cost of a product in order to determine if it is a good deal or not.

Guess what happens to a tank with $10k corals and a Jebao that has a hiccup with your alkalinity dosing?

That's an extreme example though. Most people, even if they are ok with it, realise Jebao is low quality and a matter of when, not if, it will fail.

I always want the best equipment that will perform as needed, without problems. And I am willing to pay for that. There are plenty of mid range products that will outperform a "so-called" premium product.

If you're paying top dollar for an Ecotech whatever (just an example)... it should not rust or die out prematurely. That is what the higher price should be buying you. But that has not been the case recently.

I linked to another thread a page or so back. Lots of people with rusting wet side MP pumps where Ecotech blamed the user. I was prepared to go with the Vectra L1 return pump until I started reading about the loud whining sound it makes for a lot of people. Went with the Reef Octopus VarioS pumps instead, and they come with every attachment anyone would need to use it as opposed to paying extra for those parts with the Vectra.

I would say to avoid a cheap knock off brand because it can be hazardous and you don't know what you're going to get. It could last years or it could die in a month. The problem is that some high-end brands haven't been deserving of the asking price by backing it up with top notch quality.

Sure, your Ecotech may last years, but it also may last one year. That shouldn't be a concern for a device in that price bracket.

 

[Forsaken77]

So say I'm looking for a 7500 gph pump, what are the other options out there?

IMO, quality has nothing to do with the price of the MP60.

That's something completely different. If there is only 1 product that offers a capability, there's no competition.

But there are gyres that move a heck of a lot more water than an MP60 does, even if it's rated at a lower gph.

 

[reefwiser]

One problem I see is people not doing maintenance on their equipment. Monthly maintenance is required on all equipment.

 

[gcarroll]

That's something completely different. If there is only 1 product that offers a capability, there's no competition.

But there are gyres that move a heck of a lot more water than an MP60 does, even if it's rated at a lower gph.

That is your perception of flow, not factual. It is a different type of water movement.

Also the footprint of the MP40 is much smaller than a large gyre. For the given space you could mount 3 MP60 pumps.
So there is an added value that the MP60 is much smaller.

Also the motor is outside of the aquarium. This allows for less heat transfer eliminates the chance of current leaking in the aquarium.
So for some, not having the motor inside the aquarium is also added value.

The real question is if that value is worth $225? For some it is.

 

[gcarroll]

So I guess what I'm saying is that with the Ecotech MP line, you are paying a premium for a pump that has no direct competition.

 

[Servillius]

This incessant whining is the number one reason I end up getting off forums.

It’s genuinely malign. You don’t like someone’s prices, buy elsewhere. You want the persons product, pay for it. If You want the persons product but you want the right to tell them what to charge for it too, get stuffed.

How would you feel about someone showing up at your work and telling you they think you earn too much?

If you believe prices are set by greed and stupidity, you believe the vendors you go to are greedy and the hobbiests you talk to are stupid. I’d suggest you spend some time reflecting on your attitude.

 

[DMan]

Where did all the "jerks" come from. This site used to be so professional and helpfull. Guess I'll go check out RC again, but I doubt they are any better

 

[Velcro]

This incessant whining is the number one reason I end up getting off forums.

It’s genuinely malign. You don’t like someone’s prices, buy elsewhere. You want the persons product, pay for it. If You want the persons product but you want the right to tell them what to charge for it too, get stuffed.

How would you feel about someone showing up at your work and telling you they think you earn too much?

If you believe prices are set by greed and stupidity, you believe the vendors you go to are greedy and the hobbiests you talk to are stupid. I’d suggest you spend some time reflecting
on your attitude.

 

[DMan]

People that think their equipment should last a life time because they paid a premium, need to switch over to a Freshwater system. Then their equipment will last. Using anything in salt water is a gamble. And if it is not maintained properly it's not going to last. The building blocks of Calcium carbonate will make sure of that. Not to mention all the other things going on in a salt water environment. You don't want to pay then buy the cheap stuff, lots of people using Jeabo with good results.

 

[Forsaken77]

This incessant whining is the number one reason I end up getting off forums.

It’s genuinely malign. You don’t like someone’s prices, buy elsewhere. You want the persons product, pay for it. If You want the persons product but you want the right to tell them what to charge for it too, get stuffed.

How would you feel about someone showing up at your work and telling you they think you earn too much?

If you believe prices are set by greed and stupidity, you believe the vendors you go to are greedy and the hobbiests you talk to are stupid. I’d suggest you spend some time reflecting on your attitude.

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out then, because you don't add anything to the conversation. In fact, you detract from it. Seems like you're the one that needs an attitude check.

I was making a simple statement not to support overpriced products, unless it's the only option for your needs, that don't meet a quality criteria. Maybe you missed those points.

You pay good money for a product and that product should last. If a product doesn't last, rusts, or causes problems, it would be smarter as a community not to get behind something like that. It sends a statement to manufacturers that people won't be beta testers for companies.

I've said it many times in this thread, which you obviously didn't read, the price is not the issue. It's the price not meeting the quality like they used to.

 

[Forsaken77]

I wouldve went all tunze for powerheads but they are the ugliests pieces of hardware known to man lol

They are ugly, lol. But some of the most reliable.

 

[Forsaken77]

So I guess what I'm saying is that with the Ecotech MP line, you are paying a premium for a pump that has no direct competition.

Yes, that was just an example though. Ecotech makes some awesome gear as well. In fact, most of the premium brands are mostly good. It's the products that aren't good, or have problems, that still require a premium price.

This wasn't meant for just high dollar stuff. It could be the $40 Neptune probe holder that explodes in rust, or the IM algae holders that rust, ect...

 

[Dr RBG]

I try to dyi when possible, also love open box stuff and refurb, when possible,

 

[Forsaken77]

People that think their equipment should last a life time because they paid a premium, need to switch over to a Freshwater system. Then their equipment will last. Using anything in salt water is a gamble. And if it is not maintained properly it's not going to last. The building blocks of Calcium carbonate will make sure of that. Not to mention all the other things going on in a salt water environment. You don't want to pay then buy the cheap stuff, lots of people using Jeabo with good results.

It was an example that a $600+ POWERHEAD should last more than a year or two. Yeah, some have lasted a decade, but a lot haven't lasted two years. Been in saltwater 20 years and equipment was never this excessive price wise, with this many problems. Anything that commanded a high price, you could be sure it was a quality device. That seems to be slipping is all.

People seem to think price is the whole argument here, when that couldn't be further from the truth. It's price is starting to lack quality.

 

[Servillius]

I opened a ticket to Reef Octopus asking if this space saver is gold plated and why an internal pump, inside the body, costs $200 more than a more efficient version with the external pump.

The response I got said that there's extra acrylic for the space saver pump. Yeah, maybe $20 more acrylic.

I feel we need to stop with brand recognition and supporting the blatant price gouging this industry is becoming so comfortable with as far as equipment goes. The markup on all of this gear is crazy, especially skimmers.

I think you're missing the point, as usual. Do you really think an Ecotech MP-60 is really worth over $600 for a powerhead? NO! And if you go look at some reviews on BRS, I believe it's around a 3 star rating.

I think a lot of people end up buying certain brands because LFS's push it on people because of the markup, people on forums say this is the best brand, or other people just want to say they have a high dollar piece of gear.
...
But you keep spending away on those products that just tells manufacturers we're as big of suckers as they think.

It seems most of the sheeple have already let them turn mainstream. I'm trying to turn it back, lol. Or at least open some eyes.

Nobody is saying that the MP powerheads aren't good. But is an MP60 fairly priced at over $600? No powerhead should cost that much unless it's gold plated. Their L1 Vectra return pump doesn't even cost that much and is probably more costly to make. They just throw out a high priced figure and see if people will pay it. I honestly think the MP60 should cost what the 40 does, the 40 for what the 10 does, ect... But that's just my opinion.

Perhaps I should've titled it differently. Maybe not voting with our wallets, but supporting OVERPRICED equipment. Because when you pay for something that is overpriced, by a long shot, you're telling the manufacturer that you're ok with that price. Especially when year after year the quality drops and it seems that the general public are the beta testers.

That's in essence what I was getting at. Not the fact that people want high-end equipment. I do to, but it should be worth the price of admission. Pieces shouldn't need replacement in less than a year. I mean two MP60's, which is roughly $1,300, is around the price of a pool filter.

...

This hobby is already expensive. But supporting those ridiculous prices doesn't help consuners, any of us.

Just to help out I’ve quoted some of your posts.

You seem very attached to your opinion of what something is worth. when a manufacturer doesn’t price in accordance with your expectations you call it price gouging and when people buy something you don’t think is worth it you call them sheeple.

I use Tunze pumps now because I love how the SeaSweeps work and the pumps are amazingly reliable. That said, my MPs were worth every penny. They were amazing pumps. If I pay extra because I like the low profile appearance I’m not a fool. I’m paying for products that satisfy my priorities. If you have different priorities, buy something else.

When you present your argument as a case if you knowing better than everyone, you’re being unfair to all sorts of people.

Are some products failing to live up to expectations? Sure. I know several and I’ve voiced my option on those. If that’s what you intended to say, what came across was much harsher and more judgmental of the participants all around.

 

[ryboy707]

Ok, what's everyone's opinion on panta rhei pumps? Worth it?

 

[Servillius]

Ok, what's everyone's opinion on panta rhei pumps? Worth it?

Never seen one in person so hard to know. When I asked the distributor if I needed one he told me it was way too much for my tank and not to get it. I’m sure it fits a niche, but I don’t know what that niche is.

 

[jduong916]

Stuff in this world has always been awfully expensive, it's nothing new. One item, a very important one, has come down in price greatly over the years and imo has gotten much better. What is it? PROTEIN SKIMMERS. They work better and are a lot cheaper, couple hundred will get you something decent, the cheap and expensive pumps still crap out though.

 

[Forsaken77]

Just to help out I’ve quoted some of your posts.

You seem very attached to your opinion of what something is worth. when a manufacturer doesn’t price in accordance with your expectations you call it price gouging and when people buy something you don’t think is worth it you call them sheeple.

I use Tunze pumps now because I love how the SeaSweeps work and the pumps are amazingly reliable. That said, my MPs were worth every penny. They were amazing pumps. If I pay extra because I like the low profile appearance I’m not a fool. I’m paying for products that satisfy my priorities. If you have different priorities, buy something else.

When you present your argument as a case if you knowing better than everyone, you’re being unfair to all sorts of people.

Are some products failing to live up to expectations? Sure. I know several and I’ve voiced my option on those. If that’s what you intended to say, what came across was much harsher and more judgmental of the participants all around.

That is exactly what I was saying. I clarified this a few times over the thread that the title wasn't the best choice of words. If you notice I happen to post a lot in the middle of the night (when I can't sleep). So choice of words aren't always the best, but I felt it at least got the point across. It wasn't what I felt the product was worth, it was what's the quality of the product that's making it worth that with a bunch of issues?

I don't understand how anything could come across as judgemental when I wasn't criticizing anyone's choice, but a general theme of rising prices and lower quality across the industry, using Ecotech as a single example. I was just saying that people should basically be more aware of what shortcomings are associated with a lot of "premium" products, that I have admittedly bought myself, and not continue to support those products (not brands). If I bought the exact products I was referring to, how is that being judgemental of anyone's choice?

Maybe the context came across wrong? I don't know. The sheeple thing was because it seems this industry has become indoctrinated that certain brands (not individual products) will give the best experience, regardless of things to the contrary.

If anything I said came across as judgemental, that wasn't the intention.

I'll use Sony as an example. Sony has always charged high prices for their tv's. They used to be a premium brand, but for decades still commanded a premium price with little, to no innovation, and often implementing features years after the competition. Only up until recently has Sony went back to being a premium tv manufacturer, but all along Sony was charging high prices and a lot of people would buy the inferior tv because it was from Sony. Thinking that because Sony made it that it was top notch.

That's what I was trying to convey. That just because a certain company makes something doesn't mean it's worthy of its asking price if there are better functioning products of the same class available that will suit your needs. For people to be aware of this. Because not everybody researches everything.

My bad if it came across not how it was intended.