We Should Vote With Our Wallets!!!

[MnFish1]

People buy equipment they think is best using the budget they have. Just because a couple people have problems with echotech pumps doesn't mean the vast majority of people did. If they did the pumps wouldn't sell for any price. There seems to be a lot of anecdote with little factual basis. On the corporate greed front, until you can tell me the margins on the Chinese products and Ecotech for example - what difference does it make.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

It seems that most aquarium gear has gotten ridiculously overpriced over the past few years. I don't think we should buy into it. Even the premium brands like Ecotech, Neptune, Vertex, AI, and Maxspect have all had issues with quality control, yet command a premium price.

I'll give you an example... While looking for a skimmer for my 180 build I was considering the Reef Octopus Elite (which is never part of ANY sales btw). The internal model, with exterior pump, was what I wanted but wouldn't fit the sump chamber. The space saving version is $200 more. I opened a ticket to Reef Octopus asking if this space saver is gold plated and why an internal pump, inside the body, costs $200 more than a more efficient version with the external pump.

The response I got said that there's extra acrylic for the space saver pump. Yeah, maybe $20 more acrylic.

I feel we need to stop with brand recognition and supporting the blatant price gouging this industry is becoming so comfortable with as far as equipment goes. The markup on all of this gear is crazy, especially skimmers.

I feel we should buy what works at the cheapest price, not by brand, and teach these manufacturers that we will leave them standing there with their proverbial high priced junk in their hands.

The only way they will lower these prices are if people stop buying it. I can see lighting being a grey area, but a black box with better quality control would be just as good as a $700 light.

That's my rant. I feel most people should be able to experience this hobby and the price prohibits that for a lot of people.

I am in the other camp and tend to buy premium products because I trust their quality control more then say jebao with the 1000’s of dollars in livestock I keep. To drive this point home last year I had water get into my jebao wavemaker causing a power surge which electrocuted my tank and burnt through the wire casing (before my surge and gfi) nearly lighting my house on fire. Thank god my parents were visiting and put the fire out... The worst I’ve had out of an ecotech product was it stopped working and was eventually replaced even though it was out of warranty.

Finally, I realize the prices they charge are high but in the grand scheme of things these are small companies with little bulk buying power and very high r&d and software development costs. Making refined product such as a radion light is an expensive endevour and making software like reeflink is a ridiculously expensive one. Just thought you would like an opposing view. Happy holidays and reefing!

 

[Forsaken77]

Ok, what's everyone's opinion on panta rhei pumps? Worth it?

I have never used one. Seems very cool, like it gives a gyre type of flow in a pump form. As long as it's a quality made product and suits your needs then it's worth it. If there's something else that will suit your needs for way less, then I would suggest that. This seems like a one of a kind product and is advertised for commercial use as well, which could be overkill for a home tank depending on what you'd need it for.

 

[Forsaken77]

I am in the other camp and tend to buy premium products because I trust their quality control more then say jebao with the 1000’s of dollars in livestock I keep. To drive this point home last year I had water get into my jebao wavemaker causing a power surge which electrocuted my tank and burnt through the wire casing (before my surge and gfi) nearly lighting my house on fire. Thank god my parents were visiting and put the fire out... The worst I’ve had out of an ecotech product was it stopped working and was eventually replaced even though it was out of warranty.

Finally, I realize the prices they charge are high but in the grand scheme of things these are small companies with little bulk buying power and very high r&d and software development costs. Making refined product such as a radion light is an expensive endevour and making software like reeflink is a ridiculously expensive one. Just thought you would like an opposing view. Happy holidays and reefing!

I buy in the high-end category as well. I wasn't referring to Ecotech as a bad company, or even saying their lights are bad. I was just highlighting the fact that just because a product comes from a "reputable" company, doesn't mean all of their products are at the same level of quality.

 

[RichReef]

A laptop PC is cheaper than an Apex. Apex won't last half as long. That's a load of crap.

A plastic skimmer costs more than a laptop. Another load of crap.

When you compare what we have to pay for equipment to other merchandise if you can't figure out we are being ***** you are severely handicapped. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Don't even let me begin on lighting. I can redo the lighting in my entire house.

Yeah I bought it before. But at the moment my tanks are empty and they are probably going to stay that way because of the ridiculous fleecing.

 

[FlyinBryan]

It’s all about supply and demand. If I can sell a PS for $500 right on!! If I can add plastic to it, pay an engineer to design it, the plastic guy to recast a mold, and then pay all the people in between, and if I have to charge an extra $200 and there is a market demand that can and will pay that price, job well done!
It’s all about supply and demand, and everything in between.
Be thankful someone went through the trouble and took the risk to even make a design build and bring one to market. Be thankful one is even available in the style you’re looking for!!
You can’t come in here and then blast the guy because you can’t afford. Be grateful one is available.
You don’t know what that guy had to do to make that PS in the way you wanted it. It may look like ‘just a piece of plastic’ to you but see the beginning of my statement. There’s quite a bit that goes into it.
Ever made a chicken sandwich from scratch? I mean from scratch? From growing the ingredients along with raising the chicken and get the salt, from the ocean? It’d cost you close to $1500!
I can’t make a pencil. Any idea how many people earn a living making a pencil from start to finish? It’s quite a bit.
I would strongly recommend just a bit of economic understanding and free market capitalism first.
You can get angry and upset and blast this manufacturer away in here but you’re not helping anything. He’s got to feed his kids as well at the end of the day.

You can vote with your wallets but it’s not going to do any good. The market will have the final say. If I and others can buy that PS at the price he’s offering it, all the better.

Otherwise guys are not going to provide new products and our hobby will tank (pun intended) because someone started a crusade against them.

 

[amazongb]

I recently set up a new tank and waited and waited for MP 40 to go on sale, finally iirc BRS or Marine Depot had a 15% off on Labor Day and I snagged one to try.. love it, and I’ve been waiting for another sale to get another one. That said, the higher priced stuff only goes on sale a couple of times a year, but I prefer waiting and getting some kind of discount. I don’t understand why manufacturers prevent BRS and MD and others from discounting, as they’d move more product.. but I believe they are price protecting their resellers which is old school imo..

 

[Forsaken77]

Stuff in this world has always been awfully expensive, it's nothing new. One item, a very important one, has come down in price greatly over the years and imo has gotten much better. What is it? PROTEIN SKIMMERS. They work better and are a lot cheaper, couple hundred will get you something decent, the cheap and expensive pumps still crap out though.

Have skimmers gotten better? Maybe compared to the air stone days, but I think that's a subjective statement.

Jeff, from Lifereef, arguably makes some of the best skimmers. He flat out told me that needle wheel skimmers suck. He said he goes to trade shows and talks with manufacturers about their needle wheels and they admit they are less efficient, but need to come out with new products, whether they're better or not. That's why Jeff has been using the Venturi design for almost 2 decades. If it ain't broke, why break it?

Now if you're just talking needle wheels in general, sure, you can get something decent for a few hundred. Deltecs are supposedly some of the top performing needle wheels and yet they use a pump that costs under $100 (the AC & DC versions). Yet an AquaMaxx pump replacement will set you back almost double that. And that's an economic brand.

I own both an AquaMaxx and Deltec skimmer btw. This is a case where a premium brand is more consumer friendly and not marking their product up 300%.

It's not cost, it's cost to quality.

 

[Daltrey]

Ecotech is overpriced but I still have bought into them. I own their lights, powerheads and pump. It would be nice if they were lower priced but sometime you have to pay for better quality.

 

[Mattrg02]

Does Ecotech sell itself on longevity? Or is it performance? Rarely do you get both.

Lexus makes a great luxury car. They bill it as the most reliable car you can buy and they stick behind it when something does go wrong. Brakes and oil don’t cost much either.

Now Porsche makes a near perfect sports car. While reliable enough, they ain’t no Lexus.

Put a Lexus up against a Porsche on the track, or at a redlight, and see who shows off the best. My Lexus is350 is a very nice car to drive to work in, but SUCKS when compared to my Porsche Boxster S when we start talking about speed and agility. All of that speed and agility comes at a price and Porsche doesn’t pretend to be in the same reliability ball game as Lexus.

 

[reeferanonymous]

I found myself buying all high end and regretting most of it.

I will say, I have enjoyed the ecotech live feature, which other discount brand don’t seem to offer.

 

[Forsaken77]

I recently set up a new tank and waited and waited for MP 40 to go on sale, finally iirc BRS or Marine Depot had a 15% off on Labor Day and I snagged one to try.. love it, and I’ve been waiting for another sale to get another one. That said, the higher priced stuff only goes on sale a couple of times a year, but I prefer waiting and getting some kind of discount. I don’t understand why manufacturers prevent BRS and MD and others from discounting, as they’d move more product.. but I believe they are price protecting their resellers which is old school imo..

Just a quick hint... When BRS runs those sales where preferred reefers get 10x's points... If you need 2 decently priced items, buy 1 and checkout and you get the points immediately. So then you can use those 10x's points on the 2nd purchase 5 seconds later. Doesn't work with MD because it takes anywhere from 24hrs to a week to get the points.

It was on July 4th or something, where they had the 10x's reward points and all Reef Octopus was on sale 10% off. I needed 2 VarioS-6 return pumps. Paid for the first pump, was given the reward points after checkout, then got $50 off the 2nd pump just from the rewards points a minute later. Then had another $50 of store credit for rewards points. Better than having $100 store credit and paying close to full price. Rather have the $50 off on a pump. Also got 2 free T-shirts because it was 2 separate purchases.

Definitely try to take advantage of those 10x's rewards points because you basically get a sale price on anything the store sells with the 2nd purchase.

 

[Daltrey]

Does Ecotech sell itself on longevity? Or is it performance? Rarely do you get both.

Lexus makes a great luxury car. They bill it as the most reliable car you can buy and they stick behind it when something does go wrong. Brakes and oil don’t cost much either.

Now Porsche makes a near perfect sports car. While reliable enough, they ain’t no Lexus.

Put a Lexus up against a Porsche on the track, or at a redlight, and see who shows off the best. My Lexus is350 is a very nice car to drive to work in, but SUCKS when compared to my Porsche Boxster S when we start talking about speed and agility. All of that speed and agility comes at a price and Porsche doesn’t pretend to be in the same reliability ball game as Lexus.

Funny you should mention that as I work for Lexus.

 

[Forsaken77]

Does Ecotech sell itself on longevity? Or is it performance? Rarely do you get both.

Lexus makes a great luxury car. They bill it as the most reliable car you can buy and they stick behind it when something does go wrong. Brakes and oil don’t cost much either.

Now Porsche makes a near perfect sports car. While reliable enough, they ain’t no Lexus.

Put a Lexus up against a Porsche on the track, or at a redlight, and see who shows off the best. My Lexus is350 is a very nice car to drive to work in, but SUCKS when compared to my Porsche Boxster S when we start talking about speed and agility. All of that speed and agility comes at a price and Porsche doesn’t pretend to be in the same reliability ball game as Lexus.

And you're aware of that. That's all I'm saying here man. Not everybody researches everything. And just because something is made by a good company doesn't necessarily mean it's a good product. I'm not saying an entire brand went downhill, I'm just saying that just because a PRODUCT is from a high end company doesn't mean every product the company sells is worth it. And people should research, even if it's from a high end company, because it may be the one product they've had problems with.

This thread has went in so many other directions than it was intended to, with people implying things that were never the point. Like I said before, I was going to go with the Ecotech Vectra L1 for my 180's return pump, but when I researched it I found a lot of people had issues with running it over 60%.

The point was that just because it's high priced and from a grade A company, don't always assume it's gonna be a great product. And to avoid things like that. That's it... a simple thing for folks who think that because it's the most expensive means it's the best. Do your research because you may find a product that suits your needs and save a few hundred bucks in the process.

 

[Forsaken77]

Funny you should mention that as I work for Lexus.

What's the sporty coupe? The RS?

 

[Orcus Varuna]

A laptop PC is cheaper than an Apex. Apex won't last half as long. That's a load of crap.

A plastic skimmer costs more than a laptop. Another load of crap.

When you compare what we have to pay for equipment to other merchandise if you can't figure out we are being ***** you are severely handicapped. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Don't even let me begin on lighting. I can redo the lighting in my entire house.

Yeah I bought it before. But at the moment my tanks are empty and they are probably going to stay that way because of the ridiculous fleecing.

When you buy an apex your really purchasing the fusion software. Software is (insert adjective of choice) expensive to develop. If you take specialty high productivity software such as Abelton, Final Cut, Adobe Premier, CAD, etc. The cost of the software alone is $300-1000+ or carries a high monthly subscription fee. Or take my company for example which just paid north of $50 million for a 10 year software contract (for our medical record software) after trying for years to develop its own. Those programs are made and sold by some of the biggest companies in the world. Neptune is tiny in comparison and apex fusion is a highly refined software with excellent desktop and app interfaces. I honestly think you would be shocked by how slim their margins really are.

 

[Tropical lionfish]

This hobby is surely getting more expensive every day! I think none of the top end hardwares are absolute necessities and alternatives can do decent jobs. But then if i save any money on one deal it gets spent on a new coral [emoji23]...am I the only one who is stuck in this vicious cycle of greed? [emoji1]

 

[Jim Heenan]

Ecotech is overpriced but I still have bought into them. I own their lights, powerheads and pump. It would be nice if they were lower priced but sometime you have to pay for better quality.

My thoughts exactly! When I switched over from my Cichlid tank a year ago, I knew a fellow with these Vortech pumps. I was immediately attracted to them, then I looked at the price...wow! BIG $$$! Needless to say I bought 2 MP40's. Then I was purchasing AC return pumps left and right, but not happy with any of them. So I landed on a M1. Then! I sold my Current USA LED and dropped so coin on 2 Radions (no small purchase I must say). At the end of the day I realized these high end equipment purchases were borderline obscenely expensive (compared to what I was used to paying).

I drank the Kool Aid and I'm happy with them.

 

[hpimichael02]

At the end of the day its all about what you want your final tank to accomplish, if your spending $300 on a 1/4" sps frag, then you better be paying for tgat top dollar equipment to moniter and all that etc. If your buying from the $5 crap frag selection at you LFS then its up to you..lol... i buy jebao for pumps and powerheads, radion and AI for LED, phoenix for MH, reef octopus for the skimmers,, aquaforest for salt and additives- to poor for a monitoring system.

 

[Rakie]

That's something completely different. If there is only 1 product that offers a capability, there's no competition.

But there are gyres that move a heck of a lot more water than an MP60 does, even if it's rated at a lower gph.

That's something I've found issue with. EcoTech dramatically overestimates their vortech pumps GPH. Their flow pattern is weak, streamlined and not very wide or diffused -- It's much better at the mp40/60 size, but the mp10 is too narrow for me.

I found this out first hand when 2 mp10's at their max setting weren't moving even close to enough water for my tank, which is basically a 50 cube. I put in a single Tunze 6015, which is the smallest powerhead they make, producing only 400gph (more than 1000gph less than an MP10) and side by side, it destroyed BOTH the mp10's. I sold both mp10's instantly and moved on. Second best decision I've made in the hobby.

EcoTech makes a nice light that I stand behind. I don't stand behind anything else they've produced, and neither do they -- or the most expensive items in the hobby would have a real warranty.