What causes polyp bailout besides parameter swings?

[New&no clue]

I have had three corals have a couple of heads or the whole coral bailout within the last month. From doing research, it looks like the leading cause is parameter swings. I have been testing every couple of days for the previous month and haven't noticed any large swings. Is there anything else that can cause it? Flow issues? Lighting issues? Pest or bacteria?

Below are my test results. I also recently sent out an ICP test, and the results show some trace elements were low, and my Aluminum was increased at 117.4.

 

[blaxsun]

Yes, flow and lighting can also have an effect.

 

[New&no clue]

Yes, flow and lighting can also have an effect.

Is it too much flow? I have been concerned with flow from the start of this tank. I have 3 MP40 on a 6-foot tank, and I am worried it's too high.

 

[ZoWhat]

What three corals?

No one can answer this question without knowing what the three corals are

 

[New&no clue]

What three corals?

No one can answer this question without knowing what the three corals are

Hammer, Frogspawn, and Candy Cane

 

[Someshmuk]

do you have a ph monitor on your system?

 

[New&no clue]

do you have a ph monitor on your system?

No, I do randomly test it, and it's always right around 8.0. I have a larger refugium with an opposite light schedule as the tank. TBH I can't even remember that last time I checked, so I probably should start testing again.

 

[Someshmuk]

No, I do randomly test it, and it's always right around 8.0. I have a larger refugium with an opposite light schedule as the tank. TBH I can't even remember that last time I checked, so I probably should start testing again.

A point ph test by itself will tell you if you're in the ballpark but the value comes in knowing how much your ph is swinging throughout the day with the low right before lights/morning sun hits the tank and high right before your peak lighting ramps down. If the swings are significant, say 0.4+. ph, then that can introduce stress on top of whatever was bothering your corals. Typical reef tanks sit somewhere around 7.8-8.5 but usually ph is not considered over other stressors in the tank.

usually frogspawns, candy canes, and hammers are more robust then the anemone that you got in your tank. If you dose, how much dkh do you dose in a day and how do you do it? Alkalinity is usually the biggest issue because dosing the daily consumption in one go can raise the ph in a tank by +0.2 in a flash which is the max ph change i've seen as acceptable in a single dose.

 

[Someshmuk]

to add on that, i would probably list down what you're putting into the tank (chemicals, food, etc.), how you're doing it, and what is it correcting, what are the parameters you're trying to keep, what test equipment you have and their state, what your general aquarium setup. (what equipment you have on your tank), and what your maintinence routine looks like.

that should be a good start for identifying the issues you're seeing in your tank.

 

[New&no clue]

A point ph test by itself will tell you if you're in the ballpark but the value comes in knowing how much your ph is swinging throughout the day with the low right before lights/morning sun hits the tank and high right before your peak lighting ramps down. If the swings are significant, say 0.4+. ph, then that can introduce stress on top of whatever was bothering your corals. Typical reef tanks sit somewhere around 7.8-8.5 but usually ph is not considered over other stressors in the tank.

usually frogspawns, candy canes, and hammers are more robust then the anemone that you got in your tank. If you dose, how much dkh do you dose in a day and how do you do it? Alkalinity is usually the biggest issue because dosing the daily consumption in one go can raise the ph in a tank by +0.2 in a flash which is the max ph change i've seen as acceptable in a single dose.

I dose 2-part for Alk. My doser is set to do 6ml every 4 hours; in 24 hours, I dose 36ml. I agree that I have much more sensitive livestock in the tank, so I am concerned that it is not a water quality issue as I would think I would see my anemones or clams reacting first.

to add on that, i would probably list down what you're putting into the tank (chemicals, food, etc.), how you're doing it, and what is it correcting, what are the parameters you're trying to keep, what test equipment you have and their state, what your general aquarium setup. (what equipment you have on your tank), and what your maintinence routine looks like.

that should be a good start for identifying the issues you're seeing in your tank.

The only thing I regularly dose is 2-part for Alk and Calcium. Both are set to dose every 4 hours with 2 hours in between each dose. For example, alk doses at midnight, calcium at 2:00, alk at 4:00, calcium at 6:00... and so on. I use Hanna to test most things and Salifert as backups. I also compared my test to the ICP test I just got back, and everything was close to their results.

For food, I feed PE pellets and flakes twice a day from an auto feeder. One a day, usually at night, I feed a frozen mix of Mysis, Spirulina Brine, Calanus, Cyclopod. In the morning, I put in a sheet of Nori, and also, at night, I add a couple of cap fulls of phyto.

My tank is 180 gallons with 3 MP40s. Initially, they were set at 75% reef crest, but I've dropped them down to 40%. For equipment, I have two sumps. One is a dedicated refugium with Sponges, Chaeto, pods, and live rock. The other sump is mechanical with a skimmer and a BRS dual reactor. It started with two canisters of carbon, then switched to 1 canister of carbon and 1 of phosguard. However, after I got the results of my ICP test with Aluminum, I pulled out the phosguard and have one canister of carbon going. Both sumps are roller mats.

For maintenance, I do a 10% WC each week. Once a month, I pull out powerheads, return pumps, and skimmer and clean them with citric acid.

For livestock, I have 21 fish (9 anthias, 3 tangs, 2 clowns, 2 gobies, 2 wrasses, blenny, coral beauty, and mandarin), 3 clams, 5-6 BTA, 3 RFA, 15+ shrimp, lots of snails, hermits, and conches.

 

[Someshmuk]

I dose 2-part for Alk. My doser is set to do 6ml every 4 hours; in 24 hours, I dose 36ml. I agree that I have much more sensitive livestock in the tank, so I am concerned that it is not a water quality issue as I would think I would see my anemones or clams reacting first.


The only thing I regularly dose is 2-part for Alk and Calcium. Both are set to dose every 4 hours with 2 hours in between each dose. For example, alk doses at midnight, calcium at 2:00, alk at 4:00, calcium at 6:00... and so on. I use Hanna to test most things and Salifert as backups. I also compared my test to the ICP test I just got back, and everything was close to their results.

For food, I feed PE pellets and flakes twice a day from an auto feeder. One a day, usually at night, I feed a frozen mix of Mysis, Spirulina Brine, Calanus, Cyclopod. In the morning, I put in a sheet of Nori, and also, at night, I add a couple of cap fulls of phyto.

My tank is 180 gallons with 3 MP40s. Initially, they were set at 75% reef crest, but I've dropped them down to 40%. For equipment, I have two sumps. One is a dedicated refugium with Sponges, Chaeto, pods, and live rock. The other sump is mechanical with a skimmer and a BRS dual reactor. It started with two canisters of carbon, then switched to 1 canister of carbon and 1 of phosguard. However, after I got the results of my ICP test with Aluminum, I pulled out the phosguard and have one canister of carbon going. Both sumps are roller mats.

For maintenance, I do a 10% WC each week. Once a month, I pull out powerheads, return pumps, and skimmer and clean them with citric acid.

For livestock, I have 21 fish (9 anthias, 3 tangs, 2 clowns, 2 gobies, 2 wrasses, blenny, coral beauty, and mandarin), 3 clams, 5-6 BTA, 3 RFA, 15+ shrimp, lots of snails, hermits, and conches.

Potentially it could be a fish or invert irritating the coral but usually that doesn't cause bailout.

2nd could being having too much of a specific bacteria. I can't remember what post I saw but they were testing ciprofloxacin on brown jelly disease and saw significant improvements in the infected euphelia. It doesn't sound like you're going through that either but it's something to keep in mind.

3rd could be bottoming out nutrients in your system. The skimmer/refugium/phosguard are able to strip the water column completely of nitrate and phosphate. Anemones and clams wouldn't have an issue with it as they feed on the meaty food and phytoplankton respectively.

Lastly could be flow and lighting requirements but given the spacing of the deceased frags, it doesn't make much sense to me that they would all die off due to incorrect flow/light. Perhaps one or two of them but 3 is an indicator of something else.

I would agree that your water quality shouldn't be an issue, I don't see anything that jumps out as a key issue.High aluminum isn't a significantly detrimental element for LPS in my experience. I've tested relatively high aluminum and I figure it's from the biobricks but haven't had any issues with euphelia or other LPS.

For the size of your tank and the systems you have in place, the ph swings should be relatively stable. (I'm assuming an opposite timed refugium)

 

[Someshmuk]

Potentially it could be a fish or invert irritating the coral but usually that doesn't cause bailout.

2nd could being having too much of a specific bacteria. I can't remember what post I saw but they were testing ciprofloxacin on brown jelly disease and saw significant improvements in the infected euphelia. It doesn't sound like you're going through that either but it's something to keep in mind.

3rd could be bottoming out nutrients in your system. The skimmer/refugium/phosguard are able to strip the water column completely of nitrate and phosphate. Anemones and clams wouldn't have an issue with it as they feed on the meaty food and phytoplankton respectively.

Lastly could be flow and lighting requirements but given the spacing of the deceased frags, it doesn't make much sense to me that they would all die off due to incorrect flow/light. Perhaps one or two of them but 3 is an indicator of something else.

I would agree that your water quality shouldn't be an issue, I don't see anything that jumps out as a key issue.High aluminum isn't a significantly detrimental element for LPS in my experience. I've tested relatively high aluminum and I figure it's from the biobricks but haven't had any issues with euphelia or other LPS.

For the size of your tank and the systems you have in place, the ph swings should be relatively stable. (I'm assuming an opposite timed refugium)

It could also be the other way around on the nitrate and phosphate and they're too high but I doubt that given your results.

 

[New&no clue]

Potentially it could be a fish or invert irritating the coral but usually that doesn't cause bailout.

2nd could being having too much of a specific bacteria. I can't remember what post I saw but they were testing ciprofloxacin on brown jelly disease and saw significant improvements in the infected euphelia. It doesn't sound like you're going through that either but it's something to keep in mind.

3rd could be bottoming out nutrients in your system. The skimmer/refugium/phosguard are able to strip the water column completely of nitrate and phosphate. Anemones and clams wouldn't have an issue with it as they feed on the meaty food and phytoplankton respectively.

Lastly could be flow and lighting requirements but given the spacing of the deceased frags, it doesn't make much sense to me that they would all die off due to incorrect flow/light. Perhaps one or two of them but 3 is an indicator of something else.

I would agree that your water quality shouldn't be an issue, I don't see anything that jumps out as a key issue.High aluminum isn't a significantly detrimental element for LPS in my experience. I've tested relatively high aluminum and I figure it's from the biobricks but haven't had any issues with euphelia or other LPS.

For the size of your tank and the systems you have in place, the ph swings should be relatively stable. (I'm assuming an opposite timed refugium)

I did Cipro about two months ago because I did see BJD on a hammer. It seemed to stop the brown jelly, but maybe it didn't. What I have noticed with brown jelly is it is slow. You will see a head retracting, and then either a brown or sometimes white film starts at the edges of the head. After a couple of days, the head is covered and dead. What I am experiencing now is a head looking relatively fine, and then the following day, it's gone. I started to test PH this week, and it seems it does swing from 8.2-8.0.

It could also be the other way around on the nitrate and phosphate and they're too high but I doubt that given your results.

I am worried that nutrients might be too low. I think that might be part of the problem, but still not the whole picture.

 

[New&no clue]

Last night it happened again. I noticed one of my hammer's heads was slightly retracted on one side. This morning when I checked the tank, the head had bailed. It does seem to be mainly affecting the euphyllias. However, I have five torches, and none of them seem to have any issues. I have been trying to keep nitrates and phosphates low, not zero, since the start of this tank so I could try SPS. However, I haven't had much luck with them either, so I think I will cut back on my refugium light and see if I can pump those up a little. Again I don't think it is the whole picture, but hopefully, it is a start. If anyone has any other suggestions, I love to hear them.

 

[Forty-Two]

What kind of lights do you have? Do you have a par meter?

Last night it happened again. I noticed one of my hammer's heads was slightly retracted on one side. This morning when I checked the tank, the head had bailed. It does seem to be mainly affecting the euphyllias. However, I have five torches, and none of them seem to have any issues. I have been trying to keep nitrates and phosphates low, not zero, since the start of this tank so I could try SPS. However, I haven't had much luck with them either, so I think I will cut back on my refugium light and see if I can pump those up a little. Again I don't think it is the whole picture, but hopefully, it is a start. If anyone has any other suggestions, I love to hear them.

There is a parasite that Ive read about that in particular kills Torches - so not sure if this fits or not. Its difficult to see as it attaches to the base, and dips do not remove it. I cant recall the name at this point in time - but I would suspect a parasite related to Euphyllia.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Im reading above and it could be this or could be that- This is not a guessing matter as there is an issue going on.
So, what causes the flesh to leave the skeleton - STRESS !
What stress are we referring to:
- alkalinity being too high or too low (ideal 8 – 11 dKH)
-pH being too high or too low (ideally 7.8 – 8.3)
- Temperature being too high or too low (ideally 77-79 degrees)
- Calcium/Magnesium being out of balance or being too high or too low (ideally calcium should be 3 times less than magnesium levels. Calcium should be between 420 – 450ppm, magnesium 1300ppm)
- Phosphate being too high or too low (ideally between 0 – 0.2ppm)
- Having zero Nitrates or Nitrates above 12ppm
- Too much or too little flow directed at the coral, direct flow towards coral, not at it

If your water parameters fall outside of these ranges, or you have big swings/unstable parameters it is likely that your corals will become stressed.

 

[New&no clue]

What kind of lights do you have? Do you have a par meter?


There is a parasite that Ive read about that in particular kills Torches - so not sure if this fits or not. Its difficult to see as it attaches to the base, and dips do not remove it. I cant recall the name at this point in time - but I would suspect a parasite related to Euphyllia.

I have ATI T-5/LED hybrid. Below are my PAR reading, but I just rented a PAR meter again so I could double check these are all still accurate.

 

[New&no clue]

Im reading above and it could be this or could be that- This is not a guessing matter as there is an issue going on.
So, what causes the flesh to leave the skeleton - STRESS !
What stress are we referring to:
- alkalinity being too high or too low (ideal 8 – 11 dKH)
-pH being too high or too low (ideally 7.8 – 8.3)
- Temperature being too high or too low (ideally 77-79 degrees)
- Calcium/Magnesium being out of balance or being too high or too low (ideally calcium should be 3 times less than magnesium levels. Calcium should be between 420 – 450ppm, magnesium 1300ppm)
- Phosphate being too high or too low (ideally between 0 – 0.2ppm)
- Having zero Nitrates or Nitrates above 12ppm
- Too much or too little flow directed at the coral, direct flow towards coral, not at it

If your water parameters fall outside of these ranges, or you have big swings/unstable parameters it is likely that your corals will become stressed.

Agreed, something is causing stress, and I don't know what. As I said, this is typically not a slow decline but an overnight decline. Parameters have been stable over the last month—no equipment changes. The one thing that I think is this is a peninsula tank, and all the corals with bailout are on one side. That side has two MP40s on either end. The other side only has 1 MP40.

 

[Forty-Two]

Im reading above and it could be this or could be that- This is not a guessing matter as there is an issue going on.
So, what causes the flesh to leave the skeleton - STRESS !
What stress are we referring to:
- alkalinity being too high or too low (ideal 8 – 11 dKH)
-pH being too high or too low (ideally 7.8 – 8.3)
- Temperature being too high or too low (ideally 77-79 degrees)
- Calcium/Magnesium being out of balance or being too high or too low (ideally calcium should be 3 times less than magnesium levels. Calcium should be between 420 – 450ppm, magnesium 1300ppm)
- Phosphate being too high or too low (ideally between 0 – 0.2ppm)
- Having zero Nitrates or Nitrates above 12ppm
- Too much or too little flow directed at the coral, direct flow towards coral, not at it

If your water parameters fall outside of these ranges, or you have big swings/unstable parameters it is likely that your corals will become stressed.

the problem with this assessment is that we can see other corals are doing well. It’s the Euphylia that are not - and they are generally pretty tolerant. This is why I think it makes sense to say it’s not parameter related. Also the speed with the which it happens - usually parameters are a slower decline (except light - that can be fast)

 

[Forty-Two]

Agreed, something is causing stress, and I don't know what. As I said, this is typically not a slow decline but an overnight decline. Parameters have been stable over the last month—no equipment changes. The one thing that I think is this is a peninsula tank, and all the corals with bailout are on one side. That side has two MP40s on either end. The other side only has 1 MP40.

What was the last thing you added to your tank?