what the heck is wrong with LFS?

coralcruze · Sep 21, 2015

So I decided to QT all new and incoming fish and get serious with the eradication of ICH.

Here is what I'm doing:

#1 all fish out of DT
#2 all fish in QT ssytem for 6-8 weeks
#3 medicating in QT using coopermine

So my question is... without mentioning any names, why are my LFS telling me there is no way to eradicate ich completely from any system? some LFS say Ich is natural in the ocean (which is true ) don't worry about it (not true). some LFS say feed garlic (helps to keep fish healthy by promoting feeding is true) as it will take the ich out of the fish (not true). some LFS say Ich will remain in the DT even after the 6-8 week period.

Now why are they telling me this? I know Ich is a big money maker in the hobby... it keeps us buying more fish and more meds and feed enhancers. is this the reasons that I'm getting these types of responses from LFS and completely differant type of info here and online and from folks like myself who are in the hobby for the fun and enjoyment???

I hope I'm not going to get flamed for this but its gotten to a point that I'm hearing two differing opinions and wanted to get your take on it. BTW I've been in the hobby for 17 years so i'm not new to it but new to QT, unfortunately never had the space to QT. figured I'd give up a closet to a QT now and give it a go since I'm sick and tired of loosing fish. Weather it be slow or sudden but almost always has been ICH.

miyags · Sep 21, 2015

I think its repeating what they heard. I go fallow for 3 months. best thing you can do!!!.

dwebb1031 · Sep 21, 2015

From all the research I did when icy hit my tank I found that once it's there it's there. Now fish that are healthy and stress free with good immune systems will not show signs but it doesn't mean it's not in your tank. I battled a year ago or so with it, and found a good medicated food to put it at bay. The best part was having corals I couldn't treat the tank being as most tank treatments are not invertebrate friendly (found this out the hard way) the food treats the fish directly as opposed to the tank. I've had a couple time since the original out break that a spot or two flare up again with no new addition, and I just feed the special food for a couple days and all is good.

ImageUploadedByREEF2REEF1442860168.392246.jpg

Now I'll point out this food cost me 20$ but a year later and I still have half a bag.

Humblefish · Sep 21, 2015

In 35+ years in this hobby, I have yet to run across even one LFS owner who understands ich's life cycle as outlined here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/understanding-ich.188770/

How can they speak of something when they don't even understand the science behind it?

Now to be fair, understanding ich is not really their job. Their job is to provide you with a source of products, equipment and livestock associated with our hobby. IMHO; it is our responsibility as pet owners to educate ourselves (about fish diseases in this instance) and then make decisions on how best to care for our animals.

coralcruze · Sep 21, 2015

Humblefish said:
In 35+ years in this hobby, I have yet to run across even one LFS owner who understands ich's life cycle as outlined here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/understanding-ich.188770/

How can they speak of something when they don't even understand the science behind it?

Now to be fair, understanding ich is not really their job. Their job is to provide you with a source of products, equipment and livestock associated with our hobby. IMHO; it is our responsibility as pet owners to educate ourselves (about fish diseases in this instance) and then make decisions on how best to care for our animals.

+1

coralcruze · Sep 21, 2015

I'm sorry Dwebb1031 but everything that I have read suggests that medicated foods may help the fish to TEMPORARILY rid of ICH. however, whats so amazingly difficult with this parasite is that it mutates into a cyst after 7-9 day cycle on the fish, after which it falls off and incubates on your LR and LS. then the cyst explodes into a free swim stage where the parasite will look for a new host to attach to and feed on. So medicated food or non medicated will NOT erradicate the Ich from your system. Unfortunately food and garlic and such will just mask the Ich that's still there. I'm referring to total and unconditional erradication of this parasite.

coralcruze · Sep 21, 2015

OH one more thing... why is the LFS telling me that I will reintroduce ICH back into the system with new coral...? wont dips take care of such an occurance from happening?

JSeward · Sep 21, 2015

coralcruze said:
OH one more thing... why is the LFS telling me that I will reintroduce ICH back into the system with new coral...? wont dips take care of such an occurance from happening?

They are just telling you information that they believe is true.

Pfisherman · Sep 21, 2015

I have always considered ich to be like the athletes foot of the aquarium industry.

Dextereef · Sep 21, 2015

Humblefish said:
In 35+ years in this hobby, I have yet to run across even one LFS owner who understands ich's life cycle as outlined here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/understanding-ich.188770/

How can they speak of something when they don't even understand the science behind it?

Now to be fair, understanding ich is not really their job. Their job is to provide you with a source of products, equipment and livestock associated with our hobby. IMHO; it is our responsibility as pet owners to educate ourselves (about fish diseases in this instance) and then make decisions on how best to care for our animals.

+1 on this statement. Keep those fish fed and the tank as healthy as possible and their immune systems will fight off the Ich. From my experience, its when we neglect the fish/tank in some way is when the Ich shows its ugly head.

Dextereef · Sep 21, 2015

Pfisherman said:
I have always considered ich to be like the athletes foot of the aquarium industry.

Would be funny to see John Madden in an Ich med commercial....BOOM! get tough actin Prazipro!

erk · Sep 21, 2015

Diseases such as clownfish disease, marine velvet, etc are often confused for ich. Ich is not a deadly disease unless coupled with bad water conditions or another disease. I use it as an indicator of quality of life. If one of my fish has ich, that means I'm doing something wrong. Usually not feeding enough or stress from other fish. You can't get rid of it. You leave your tank fallow for the whole time, the second you add a new coral or some other piece of rock, its back in the system. Sure, you can freshwater dip and so on, but eventually something will come through. Learn to use ich as an indicator of a bigger problem and not THE problem. I wish I had saved the presentation by a marine biologist that said ich is only an issue in contained systems with low water quality. If I do find it, I'll post it here.

NeuroticAquatics · Sep 21, 2015

I think that most LFS have been in the industry for a while and many simply to not know better. I think it is more ignorance than trying to deceive the customer.

There is so much information on the Internet, that I typically do my own research through articles or asking people that know their stuff (like Humblefish on here).

Everyone seems to focus on Ich, but I've always worried more about Velvet, which is why I QT.

Humblefish · Sep 21, 2015

coralcruze said:
I'm sorry Dwebb1031 but everything that I have read suggests that medicated foods may help the fish to TEMPORARILY rid of ICH. however, whats so amazingly difficult with this parasite is that it mutates into a cyst after 7-9 day cycle on the fish, after which it falls off and incubates on your LR and LS. then the cyst explodes into a free swim stage where the parasite will look for a new host to attach to and feed on. So medicated food or non medicated will NOT erradicate the Ich from your system. Unfortunately food and garlic and such will just mask the Ich that's still there. I'm referring to total and unconditional erradication of this parasite.

See you're learning already.

coralcruze said:
OH one more thing... why is the LFS telling me that I will reintroduce ICH back into the system with new coral...? wont dips take care of such an occurance from happening?

As you mentioned above, most parasites have a tomont stage which can encyst upon rocks, substrate, shells, glass - any hard surface really. Tomonts are basically like "eggs" that form after the parasites drop off the fish. Eventually these tomonts rupture and release theronts (free swimmers) which seek out fish to infect. Once a fish host is found the theronts attach, thereby becoming trophonts, and the cycle begins all over again.

So, it is possible to bring in tomonts on a new coral that has been housed with an infected fish. It is unknown whether or not coral dips are capable of eradicating encysted tomonts. But I think not, since they don't even kill eggs from coral pests.

stunreefer · Sep 21, 2015

coralcruze said:
Now why are they telling me this?

Ignorance, hopefully. I do know of two stores in my area that hope you come back for more fishes... I'm waiting for them to go under, and they will with that mindest.

dwebb1031 said:
From all the research I did when icy hit my tank I found that once it's there it's there.

Keep doing research then, because once it's there it can be eradicated. Read the link Humblefish posted.

Humblefish said:
Now to be fair, understanding ich is not really their job.

Really? I believe it should be one of the most basic things a store owner selling saltwater fishes should know. Now I completely agree that it's on us to be 100% sure we're adding "clean" fishes, however I've seen far too many stores who throw up a saltwater section and treat it as freshwater. These are the LFS that should be shunned.

erk said:
You can't get rid of it. You leave your tank fallow for the whole time, the second you add a new coral or some other piece of rock, its back in the system.

False. You can get rid of it. If you quarantine new additions it will not come back into your system. The life cycle is known, and can be broken. I concur with your thoughts on keeping water quality high and ich being an indicator of other issues though.

Humblefish said:
It is unknown whether or not coral dips are capable of eradicating encysted tomonts. But I think not, since they don't even kill eggs from coral pests.

I think not, too

Afishionado · Sep 21, 2015

@stunreefer Austin is this you?

Humblefish · Sep 21, 2015

stunreefer said:
Really? I believe it should be one of the most basic things a store owner selling saltwater fishes should know. Now I completely agree that it's on us to be 100% sure we're adding "clean" fishes, however I've seen far too many stores who throw up a saltwater section and treat it as freshwater. These are the LFS that should be shunned.

In a perfect world, yes. But in reality, most LFS are nothing more than fish flippers. Their goal is to keep them alive just long enough to sell.

But let's be fair about this... owning a LFS is not easy. I know one LFS owner who is trying very hard to offer his customers disease free fish. But he's a one man operation (can't afford employees) ... so it's very tough trying to run a shop, do maintenance, and help your local club raise money. When I hear the man tell me he's up until 2AM doing client maintenance, I can't fault him for not being a fish disease expert.

stunreefer · Sep 22, 2015

Afishionado said:
@stunreefer Austin is this you?

Hey handsome

stunreefer · Sep 22, 2015

Humblefish said:
In a perfect world, yes. But in reality, most LFS are nothing more than fish flippers. Their goal is to keep them alive just long enough to sell.

Touché.

Afishionado · Sep 22, 2015

stunreefer said:
Hey handsome

Haha i thought that profile pic looked familiar! Sorry for barging into the conversation with totally irrelevant post. Just wanted to confirm and say hello!