what the heck is wrong with LFS?

dwebb1031 · Sep 23, 2015

coralcruze said:
I'm sorry Dwebb1031 but everything that I have read suggests that medicated foods may help the fish to TEMPORARILY rid of ICH. however, whats so amazingly difficult with this parasite is that it mutates into a cyst after 7-9 day cycle on the fish, after which it falls off and incubates on your LR and LS. then the cyst explodes into a free swim stage where the parasite will look for a new host to attach to and feed on. So medicated food or non medicated will NOT erradicate the Ich from your system. Unfortunately food and garlic and such will just mask the Ich that's still there. I'm referring to total and unconditional erradication of this parasite.

Right refer back to the first sentence, once it's there it's there. Your not gonna kill it off completely. Atleast not with out turning temp in the tank high enough to kill the organism which would kill your fish as well.

dwebb1031 · Sep 23, 2015

erk said:
Diseases such as clownfish disease, marine velvet, etc are often confused for ich. Ich is not a deadly disease unless coupled with bad water conditions or another disease. I use it as an indicator of quality of life. If one of my fish has ich, that means I'm doing something wrong. Usually not feeding enough or stress from other fish. You can't get rid of it. You leave your tank fallow for the whole time, the second you add a new coral or some other piece of rock, its back in the system. Sure, you can freshwater dip and so on, but eventually something will come through. Learn to use ich as an indicator of a bigger problem and not THE problem. I wish I had saved the presentation by a marine biologist that said ich is only an issue in contained systems with low water quality. If I do find it, I'll post it here.

+1

JSeward · Sep 23, 2015

erk said:
Diseases such as clownfish disease, marine velvet, etc are often confused for ich. Ich is not a deadly disease unless coupled with bad water conditions or another disease. I use it as an indicator of quality of life. If one of my fish has ich, that means I'm doing something wrong. Usually not feeding enough or stress from other fish. You can't get rid of it. You leave your tank fallow for the whole time, the second you add a new coral or some other piece of rock, its back in the system. Sure, you can freshwater dip and so on, but eventually something will come through. Learn to use ich as an indicator of a bigger problem and not THE problem. I wish I had saved the presentation by a marine biologist that said ich is only an issue in contained systems with low water quality. If I do find it, I'll post it here.

Just because Ich may be difficult to eliminate from our systems doesn't mean we shouldn't try. What if the capacitor on your homes A/C condenser goes bad while you're at work. You get home and the house is 90 degrees and your tank is 86 and rising. You take care of the problem, but despite your best efforts and otherwise perfect water conditions, you wake up to stressed fish covered in Ich because you never bothered to quarantine. Now what? You can't dose your reef with copper. You don't have spare, cycled quarantine tanks. What do you do? Ride it out and replace fish that don't make it? That's a crappy situation to be in (for you and the fish) and it has nothing to do with your water quality and husbandry skills.

erk · Sep 23, 2015

I'm not saying you shouldn't QT new fish. You should QT for as long as is necessary to ensure your fish can adapt to your system. What I am saying is that trying to physically rid your system of ich is impossible. Instead of trying to fix the insanely difficult part, fix what you can. In the situation you describe, the fish are going to weaken due to 90 deg temps. If they are healthy and in peak condition, then the likelihood of ich getting a foothold is minimal. If they are already in a weakened state prior to the temp fluctuation, then of course they will get ich, regardless if you think you did a good job leaving the tank fallow for long enough unless the temp rise is right after a fallow period. The ich population should be very low then. In the case of temp fluctuation, the right thing to do is ensure redundancy in your system. Add some sort of ability to keep your tank cool in case something happens with your main cooling system. Run 2 or 3 heaters in case one goes out. Don't blame ich for the fish dying, blame yourself for not setting up redundancies. Don't want to setup redundant systems in case of failure? Then accept the risk that your fish will succumb to ich. Or, don't overcrowd your tank. Ich is typically associated with overcrowding and poor water conditions. Reduce your fish count, add redundant systems, and QT prior to new fish introduction. If you can't do these things, then accept the risk and move on.

JSeward · Sep 23, 2015

I was just giving a simple example of how things aren't always within our control. What if you introduce a healthy, quarantined, ich free fish into a system that has ich and he's immediately bullied and stressed to the point he's susceptible to it. Trying to mitigate or eliminate the presence of ich (and other illness and disease) can be tedious, but it's very doable. Fish aren't always in perfect health and equipment doesn't always work perfectly, even for the most skilled and prepared aquarist. I'd much rather use a test strip to determine the quality of my water than a parasite infested fish.

Humblefish · Sep 23, 2015

I think people figure since fish can manage ich out in the ocean, why not in an aquarium as well? Well, there are also about a gazillion gallons of water diluting those diseases from the fish. A healthy immune system can keep up with that. In our relatively small aquariums, fish are often overwhelmed by a much higher concentration of parasites, worms and harmful bacteria. This is why "ich management" works best if done in a very large aquarium.

coralcruze · Sep 23, 2015

Humblefish... since I believe you are the expert here by extensive threads and research you display here (I read through most), I need to ask you the following:

1. If we believe that QT will get rid of ICH COMPLETELY, and I am one that does believe that we can rid of Ich completely based on known facts, we MUST also QT all incoming corals (and inverts?) or anything that comes in with water. Not doing this part can reintroduce Ich back into a clean system again.

2. assuming I set up a seperate QT for corals, could ICH cysts also exist in frozen food that could hatch? perhaps mysis or cyclop-eze or other favorite brands? most of these foods are frozen with some water that may (probably does) contain ICH cysts. Do we know if the cyst or other phase of the Ich life cycle can survive being frozen? Reason I ask is, we all know that we can hatch some feeds from eggs or cysts even if those are freeze dryed.

If #2 is true than how could we possibly ensure that once we QT both fish and corals there is NEVER a reintroduction of the Ich parasite?

Thanks

JSeward · Sep 24, 2015

coralcruze said:
Humblefish... since I believe you are the expert here by extensive threads and research you display here (I read through most), I need to ask you the following:

1. If we assume to QT and doing so properly will get rid of ICH COMPLETELY, and I am one that does believe that we can rid of Ich completely based on known facts you mention and life cycle. The part I am having most concern with though is that in order to make this work 100% than we MUST also QT all incoming corals (and inverts?) or anything that comes in with water.

2. assuming I set up a seperate QT for corals also would ICH cysts also exist in frozen food that could hatch? perhaps mysis or cyclop-eze or other favorite brands? those foods are mostly frozen with some water I would imagine or even raised in water that may (probably does) contain ICH cysts. Do we know if the cyst or other phase of the Ich life cycle can survive being frozen? We all know that we can hatch some feeds from eggs or cysts even if those are freeze dryed.

If #2 is true than how could we ensure that once we QT there is never a reintroduction of the Ich parasite?

Thanks

Mysis and cyclops are harvested in freshwater. I would say there is zero chance of marine ich in those two products. The cyst stage of the life cycle is not free swimming and likely to be on substrate and surfaces and not captured in water or on livestock when it's collected for food. Perhaps on mollusk shells? That seems possible. The free-swimming parasite can be killed with either high or low temps (extremes that would kill a fish), but I don't think I've read any reports that definitely says the cyst dies when frozen.

I'm sure Humblefish can provide more details.

Humblefish · Sep 24, 2015

coralcruze said:
1. If we believe that QT will get rid of ICH COMPLETELY, and I am one that does believe that we can rid of Ich completely based on known facts, we MUST also QT all incoming corals (and inverts?) or anything that comes in with water. Not doing this part can reintroduce Ich back into a clean system again.

Yes, all corals/inverts should be isolated in a fishless environment for 72 days prior to being placed in your DT. This allows time for any tomonts that may be encysted upon them to rupture and release theronts. Ich theronts must find a fish host to feed upon within 48 hrs or they die, thus interrupting ich's lifecycle and ending it's presence in the fishless tank. All other external parasites (velvet, brook, etc.) have an even shorter life cycle, so the 72 day fallow period protects you from those as well.

Below is a pic of my 29 gal "fishless" frag tank. Just cheap T5 lighting, Koralia powerhead, HOB powerfilter, heater, rock/sand and a frag rack gets the job done. When your corals start overgrowing your tank, you can also use this setup to hold frags to sell/trade. So, it's multipurpose.

coralcruze said:
2. assuming I set up a seperate QT for corals, could ICH cysts also exist in frozen food that could hatch? perhaps mysis or cyclop-eze or other favorite brands? most of these foods are frozen with some water that may (probably does) contain ICH cysts. Do we know if the cyst or other phase of the Ich life cycle can survive being frozen? Reason I ask is, we all know that we can hatch some feeds from eggs or cysts even if those are freeze dryed.

Freezing kills all saltwater fish pathogens, in all forms. The only danger is in feeding "fresh" seafood. For example, I buy clams & mussels from my local grocery store to feed to my angels & butterflies. However, I always freeze them for at least 24 hrs before feeding them to my fish.

Certain eggs can survive the freeze drying process, but parasite tomonts cannot. There is no danger here.