Where am I going wrong with QT

[ngoodermuth]

^^ I agree with this. And will add that gram-negative bacterial infections are very common in new fish, and often deadly even with aggressive treatment.

I’ve seen fish with very little symptoms pass in a matter of days. Usually starts with rapid breathing, and by the end you might see a sore or lesion but by the time you see it...it’s already too late.

Same with velvet, by the time the “spots” appear, the gills are already heavily infested and damaged and even prompt treatment doesn’t guarantee success. If they don’t pass before the spots appear at all.

My biggest personal dilemma, is figuring out which treatment is most important each time. Anti-bacterial, or anti-parasitic.
Starting each fish with an acriflavine bath, and then quickly ramping up copper is probably your best bet on getting the upper hand on either simultaneously [emoji848]

 

[LagunaGlide]

What other fish have you lost? I personally wouldn't put 3 tangs in a 20gal QT at the same time due to bio load and stress. What fish have you successfully put through QT? You may want to start with something more hardy singly. I recently lost 2 purple firefish within 36 hours. I wasn't sure why. There was no ammonia, temp was spot on, and salinity matched that of LFS, but it could have been something wrong with the fish I had yet to notice.

Currently I have a Royal Gramma in QT that is doing well. I followed the same practices as the firefish except I measured the water from the LFS myself rather than taking their word on what they keep it at.

 

[JustinS]

I would suspect a pH drop. I had issues with my QT and found the pH would plummet very low. I now use a pH controller attached to a dosing pump for soda ash to maintain a pH of 8.

 

[JustinS]

I would suspect a pH drop. I had issues with my QT and found the pH would plummet very low. I now use a pH controller attached to a dosing pump for soda ash to maintain a pH of 8.

 

[WW2]

This, or a nitrite spike, is almost certainly what happened, even if your ammonia badge showed nothing. 20g isn't that big, you don't have a huge margin of error, and a bottle of BioSpira will not kick start a complete cycle overnight, no matter what it says on the bottle. Other brands make similar claims, and they're all bogus imo. Once your QT has been housing a well-fed damsel for a week and still shows absolutely no trace of ammonia or nitrite on test kits, you're good to add other fish very slowly. And prophylactically use copper if you like. I personally think the stuff is the spawn of Satan, and prefer to go with GC to start followed by CP; fortunately I do not intend to add any more wrasses or anthias in the near future.

GC and CP? Sorry noob here...

 

[HotRocks]

GC and CP? Sorry noob here...

GC is the Medication General Cure
CP is Chloroquine Phosphate - a RX only medication for treatment. Can be bought outside of RX but not recommended, as the quality can be unknown.

 

[Jmblec2]

The tank is a bet small for 3 fish. Especially those 3 tangs, very aggressive. I'd get a 40g breeder

 

[rkpetersen]

CP is Chloroquine Phosphate - a RX only medication for treatment. Can be bought outside of RX but not recommended, as the quality can be unknown.

It's true. Fortunately I was able to prescribe myself some human pharmaceutical grade CP. A small quantity (25 x 500 mg), but of verified potency and purity. It's probably best not to get too much at a time anyway, as it loses strength fairly quickly; for example, the expiration date on this batch is 12/18, only 16 months after I acquired it (and I doubt I will use it all by then.)

 

[Thomthom329]

+1 w/ chipmunk

 

[jluspo]

Did you check the salinity of the fish store water? Many store keep their salinity at 1.020 or even less to save money on salt. Dumping a fish in 1.025 water will cause them to go on osmosis shock. It doesn't matter how long you drip acclimate the fish. You should match the fish store water salinity then slowly raise the salinity only by 0.001 per day at most. Its best to have a refractometer for this.

 

[sbash]

Ugh, this is the worst... QT aside, I've lost more fish than I choose to admit (even though I track them all, and I'm talking within a couple weeks of bringing them home)... One LFS I will never buy fish from again, even though they are the best LFS in the city (it's not that high of a bar)... Sometimes it is a species thing, for some reason, I can't keep candinals; no idea why, they are supposed to be hardy... Out of 7 tangs, I've only been able to keep 3 alive for more than two weeks... Anyway... I would lean toward what @chipmunkofdoom2 says, and the fish was on bought time when you brought it home... You have to keep in mind that it is very likely these fish were caught in the wild with some nasty chemicals; they say cyanide has been banned from a lot of the places we supposedly get our fish from, but who really knows OR maybe that prompted the fish catchers to use something far worse that is legal...

I also have to point out, because @rkpetersen brought it up, nitrites are generally not terribly toxic to marine fish (there is real science to back this up). So the fish that died under high nitrites were also likely on bought time...

 

[MarsRover]

I work at the National Aquarium in Baltimore. We necropsy every single animal that dies in our care, including the ones that are in QT. I don't have any solid numbers on this, but it's very rare that a fish dies and there's not a reason. Usually for animals in QT, it's a parasite, internal infection or injury. Outwardly, the animals might look fine, so the death appears to be a "mystery," but not all marine ornamental fish maladies are visible to the naked eye or observation. There's always a "why" if you have sufficient equipment and expertise to prove it. Personally, I think this is one of the biggest reasons that more reefers don't QT. Reefers see fish die in QT and assume there's something wrong with the setup and that the fish would have survived in DT. Fish can survive for a really long time in really sub-par conditions. I don't recommend subjecting fish to bad conditions intentionally, but if a fish dies in QT, it's likely not because you quarantined, it's because there was something wrong with the fish.

My point is that there was likely something wrong with the fish before you got them home. Appearing to be healthy and eating are not guarantees that there's nothing wrong with the fish. If your ammonia badge wasn't registering, then there's nothing inherent to the QT that would have killed the fish. I would suggest buying fish somewhere else. It seems to me like you have the basics of QT down. I would bet there's something unhealthy about the fish at this store, even if they look like they're okay.

Came from Baltimore/DC area before moving to LA. Love the Baltimore aquarium!


OP, I too have had terrible luck with QT until recently. And I think what everyone says is right. To recap:

-go one or two fish at a time until your successes rise
-remove all things from QT except a few pieces of PVC for hiding
-soak food in Selcon or similar. This stuff smells so fishy and works as a great attractant IMO. I like it better than the garlic stuff because garlic seems too unnatural for fish. Selcon is also is a vitamin and, I don’t know if my mother was right growing up or not but she always said the best chances to stay healthy is to keep up with vitamins
-find a reputable fish source...this is SO HARD to do and the source will continue to change over time! I used to swear by LiveAquaria (LA) and hated the two “best” LFS’s in Long Beach until more recently when I’ve been having awful luck with LA. Good news about hem is their customer service is excellent with a 15day guarantee. Gets you half way through QT so generally a safer bet. Recently I tried one of the local LFS who were charging half LA’s prices. These anthias are tanks. That said I also made some critical changes to my QT regime so we will see if they make it through. Few weeks in now and they are still eating strong and active.

-Make sure you have a full line of meds on hand, and a basic idea of how to use them. Don’t mix unless there is a major reason to (I.e. presentation of multiple symptoms).

-personally, I drip acclimate. But that depends on the process you choose. If drip isn’t working for you, try one of the other recommendations.

I think the hardest part about this Hobby for many people, including myself, is learning that it is a scientific process. One in which that unfortunately there are a variety of ways to achieve success making it difficult to pinpoint the one and only true “right” way. Also unfortunately, there is he collateral damage of money loss and more importantly loss of life of the animals. Both of these last two points can be reduced by going one fish at a time and very carefully selecting the fish and planing your QT protocol before you purchase.

Good luck

 

[SFKINNC]

I must be an echo for those who advise cycling your QT. Even with the addition of bacterial products to “jump start” the bio-filter media, it takes in my experience AT LEAST a couple of days to be sure of avoiding an ammonia spike. Bacterial additives and a dose of filter media from your DT will save weeks properly cycling a tank, but they don’t work instantly.

Whenever starting a “new” tank an alarm should sound in your brain: CYCLE! CYCLE! CYCLE!

Quarantining one fish at a time will ensure that the bioload does not outstrip a newly cycled biofilter’s capacity to handle it.

 

[Dburr1014]

One other thing, I always use display water. Just do a wc and use that water for your quarantine. I don't think fish do well in fresh mixed salt water.

 

[tgionet]

I dose janitorial ammonia to my qt until it can process 4ppm within 24 hours. Then I do a 100% water change. Then it’s 2 weeks of prazipro and medicated food (metroplex+kanaplex+focus). After that I dose cupramine to .5ppm and hold it there for 28 days. I’ve had 8 fish go through this process with 100% success rate so far.

I tried just using ‘cycled’ media from the display before with no success. 0/4 before even making it to the medicated stage...

 

[rkpetersen]

I also have to point out, because @rkpetersen brought it up, nitrites are generally not terribly toxic to marine fish (there is real science to back this up).

Yes I've heard this too and seen the information. And I've also seen long-healthy fish die acutely of nitrite spikes, with no other plausible cause. So, as with so many things in this hobby, the best science can say one thing but experience something else entirely.

 

[MarsRover]

I dose janitorial ammonia to my qt

FWIW, be careful of ammonia cleaning products. A lot of them have other marine-bad chemical detergents in addition to the just plain NH3.