Where does pest responsibility start?

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

I'd say that if a fish or coral makes it all the way through my qt process of multiple weeks and the parasite/pest manages to still get into the display, then there's no way I can blame anything but bad luck! A QT for fish should be at least a month to 8 weeks (depending on who you talk to) and coral should be a few weeks at least. I'm thinking that if I did diligent treatment and observation during that time and the pest managed to go undetected (which is a virtual impossibility...but I suppose could miraculously happen), then there's no way I should expect that the vendor would have had any different kind of experience if they qt'd.

This brings me back to my own responsibility to QT everything! If a vendor sells me something defective, then sure they need to make it right on THAT particular piece...but there's no way I can hold them accountable for any pest that enters my dt. That's on me.

 

[always reefin]

op2:

 

[ronnie]

I would argue ALL vendors strive to keep pest free tanks. Doesn't mean those same vendors dont have pests or ulterior motives (like competition). Just saying.

Also, no, it doesn't really count if second Ronnie since you guys seem to be close enough that you would hold some corals for him when he was having trouble. Sorry, I just need more proof.

I'll let them speak out if they want. I won't, though. It's unfortunate my word isn't good enough for you. I don't know what I would have to gain by not being truthful?

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

I'll let them speak out if they want. I won't, though. It's unfortunate my word isn't good enough for you. I don't know what I would have to gain by not being truthful?

I don't think it ultimately matters whether vendors have pmd you or not, Ronnie (not casting doubt on your statement...just saying that it is not important when it comes to the point you are making). I wouldn't worry about defending that point.

I think this topic is a much needed conversation and that all of us need to be more responsible whether selling or buying livestock. I appreciate the idea you have of trying to hold vendors responsible for the product they sell, and I think those who have spoken up in the thread agree that there is a responsibility on their part to do what they can to deliver pest free corals. While human error does come into play and means that we can't expect 100% of all coral sold to arrive pest free (because people make mistakes), it should most definitely be the goal. It should never be glossed over, and while it's unnecessary for us to bash vendors over mistakes, I absolutely think that neither should any vendor shrug it off...and the ones that are "worth their salt" (ha ha...see what I did there?) will do their best to see that it doesn't happen and will jump to make it right when it does.

I do think we need to avoid the blame game, and I don't think we can hold vendors responsible for crashing display tanks or ruining my entire collection (since what I put in the DT is on me), but we should certainly encourage the vendors we deal with to stay on top of their quality control (and probably avoid those that don't).

 

[ronnie]

Agreed md - it doesn't matter. I feel like a lot of progress has been made already. If we can impact just one vendor with this discussion, I think it is worth it. And I'd bet that we have impacted some, so in that sense, this is a victorious thread. Even if we get some vendors to consider changing their protocols, it at least starts to tear down the barriers to change. Because change is hard and uncomfortable. I see it every day in my line of work. "Because that's how we've always done it" isn't an acceptable answer. I cringe at this reply. And I think we've seen some of that here, and I hope our discussions shed some light on why that answer isn't good enough any more.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

I'm going to open this up for more discussion. Just keep it positive and flame free.

 

[duke4130]

I still do not understand why Ronnie is making such a big stink about this. A dip or qt will only kill walking/ swimming pests. If a dip doesn't kill eggs in your system why would it kill eggs in a vendors system? Nature always prevails in one way or another, if you do not want deal with pest then get fake corals. All it takes is one egg to get by you and into your DT and then you have a pest. We all deal with it because all of our corals are lineaged from the ocean where there isn't a qt or dip for them...LOL... I have purchased many, many corals from all over the world it is your duty as a hobbyist to check what comes in and if there is something that raises an eyebrow then ask some questions directly to the supplier or person you received it from. If you see an issue then don't put it in your tank, send it back and get a new one or a refund. The whole concept of this type of situation is not as difficult as you are making it out to be. Do you think suppliers would want to infest their systems with pests? This is a hobby for us but it is how vendors make their living and provide a roof over their kids head's and put food on the table. In this hobby a vendors actions and the way that people perceive them is everything it is not all just about the livestock. Obviously you are trying to ruin a business name and especially a business I have been going to since I started back up in the hobby a few years ago. I think i have made a pretty good name for myself in this hobby and have purchased, sold and traded plenty of things that originated from the vendor you are bashing. Have I ever once received a complaint of a pest? The answer is NO. I just purchased the RR Purple Prism mother colony out of that system that the bite mark frag came from and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, not a single pest on it. How is that possible if there is an obvious infestation of AEFW at that Vendors Store? You need to know all the facts before you come on a national forum and start bashing people. I do have another question for you being that your are so outraged that a coral had bite marks on it. Are you the person that received the frag with the supposed bite marks on it?

 

[turbo21]

I'm going to open this up for more discussion. Just keep it positive and flame free.

Best way to beat pests

Get a blowtorch and flame them. Haha

 

[turbo21]

I still do not understand why Ronnie is making such a big stink about this. A dip or qt will only kill walking/ swimming pests. If a dip doesn't kill eggs in your system why would it kill eggs in a vendors system? Nature always prevails in one way or another, if you do not want deal with pest then get fake corals. All it takes is one egg to get by you and into your DT and then you have a pest. We all deal with it because all of our corals are lineaged from the ocean where there isn't a qt or dip for them...LOL... I have purchased many, many corals from all over the world it is your duty as a hobbyist to check what comes in and if there is something that raises an eyebrow then ask some questions directly to the supplier or person you received it from. If you see an issue then don't put it in your tank, send it back and get a new one or a refund. The whole concept of this type of situation is not as difficult as you are making it out to be. Do you think suppliers would want to infest their systems with pests? This is a hobby for us but it is how vendors make their living and provide a roof over their kids head's and put food on the table. In this hobby a vendors actions and the way that people perceive them is everything it is not all just about the livestock. Obviously you are trying to ruin a business name and especially a business I have been going to since I started back up in the hobby years ago. I think i have made a pretty good name for myself in this hobby and have purchased, sold and traded plenty of things that originated from the vendor you are bashing. Have I ever once received a complaint of a pest? The answer is NO. I just purchased the RR Purple Prism mother colony out of that system that the bite mark frag came from and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, not a single pest on it. How is that possible if there is an obvious infestation of AEFW at that Vendors Store? You need to know all the facts before you come on a national forum and start bashing people. I do have another question for you being that your are so outraged that a coral had bite marks on it. Are you the person that received the frag with the supposed bite marks on it?

The thing that bothers me the most is the condition of frags some of the vendors send out. Pale colored fresh cuts with aefw bites

I would be totally ashamed if I sent somebody sps that looked like that

I took a chance with some eBay auctions and got frags that looked identical to my above description

It makes me just want to stick to the one vendor I know and trust

Is this really how corals are ahowing up from a lot of vendors.?I know of 2 for sure now that are on my no buy list

 

[prsnlty]

I think there's a difference in getting pests from someone and someone selling something with known pests. Hitchhikers happen and it's impossible to account for every microscopic creature on the reef. If something is obviously infested with pests it shouldn't be sold.

I treat every fish/coral as if it's infested with ich/aefw now. I've got ich on fish from one of the top tier vendors in the hobby that are supposedly QT'd before shipping out. I also got aefw from one of the bigger, well known coral vendors.

I don't blame them for it if the livestock is healthy but sending out corals or fish in bad health with obvious pests shouldn't happen and I won't buy from those vendors again.

+1 I feel the responsibility lies on both the vendor and buyer.

 

[joekool]

Good point

Dipping shows me that they KNOW there is an issue. But they are only hitting the surface.

The idea that they should be pest free should not be ludacris. It should be the standard. We decide that.

Ask some vendors what their dip regimen is. Then you'll realize it's pointless and a waste of time if they are really even doing it.

One vendor recieves coral three times a week. They get an initial dip, then dipped again a week later. Then they go up for sale after cutting wild caught colonies. So they've added in that same tank six different shipments (all initially dipped) and essentially made null and void any dipping, because we know that pests will slip by the first dip through egg form. By two weeks, thousands of eggs have hatched (AEFW) and have now reinfested every coral there, new and old.

Dip, hold in tank, move tank and hold dip again. Never add freshly dipped corals to a tank that has been qt already it would defeat the purpose of qt. corals should be treated and then treated again over a qt time line without any introduction of new coral shipments. Unfortunately this happens all the time.

 

[DSP]

I still do not understand why Ronnie is making such a big stink about this. A dip or qt will only kill walking/ swimming pests. If a dip doesn't kill eggs in your system why would it kill eggs in a vendors system? Nature always prevails in one way or another, if you do not want deal with pest then get fake corals. All it takes is one egg to get by you and into your DT and then you have a pest. We all deal with it because all of our corals are lineaged from the ocean where there isn't a qt or dip for them...LOL... I have purchased many, many corals from all over the world it is your duty as a hobbyist to check what comes in and if there is something that raises an eyebrow then ask some questions directly to the supplier or person you received it from. If you see an issue then don't put it in your tank, send it back and get a new one or a refund. The whole concept of this type of situation is not as difficult as you are making it out to be. Do you think suppliers would want to infest their systems with pests? This is a hobby for us but it is how vendors make their living and provide a roof over their kids head's and put food on the table. In this hobby a vendors actions and the way that people perceive them is everything it is not all just about the livestock. Obviously you are trying to ruin a business name and especially a business I have been going to since I started back up in the hobby a few years ago. I think i have made a pretty good name for myself in this hobby and have purchased, sold and traded plenty of things that originated from the vendor you are bashing. Have I ever once received a complaint of a pest? The answer is NO. I just purchased the RR Purple Prism mother colony out of that system that the bite mark frag came from and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, not a single pest on it. How is that possible if there is an obvious infestation of AEFW at that Vendors Store? You need to know all the facts before you come on a national forum and start bashing people. I do have another question for you being that your are so outraged that a coral had bite marks on it. Are you the person that received the frag with the supposed bite marks on it?

Sigh

 

[ronnie]

I still do not understand why Ronnie is making such a big stink about this. A dip or qt will only kill walking/ swimming pests. If a dip doesn't kill eggs in your system why would it kill eggs in a vendors system? Nature always prevails in one way or another, if you do not want deal with pest then get fake corals. All it takes is one egg to get by you and into your DT and then you have a pest. We all deal with it because all of our corals are lineaged from the ocean where there isn't a qt or dip for them...LOL... I have purchased many, many corals from all over the world it is your duty as a hobbyist to check what comes in and if there is something that raises an eyebrow then ask some questions directly to the supplier or person you received it from. If you see an issue then don't put it in your tank, send it back and get a new one or a refund. The whole concept of this type of situation is not as difficult as you are making it out to be. Do you think suppliers would want to infest their systems with pests? This is a hobby for us but it is how vendors make their living and provide a roof over their kids head's and put food on the table. In this hobby a vendors actions and the way that people perceive them is everything it is not all just about the livestock. Obviously you are trying to ruin a business name and especially a business I have been going to since I started back up in the hobby a few years ago. I think i have made a pretty good name for myself in this hobby and have purchased, sold and traded plenty of things that originated from the vendor you are bashing. Have I ever once received a complaint of a pest? The answer is NO. I just purchased the RR Purple Prism mother colony out of that system that the bite mark frag came from and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, not a single pest on it. How is that possible if there is an obvious infestation of AEFW at that Vendors Store? You need to know all the facts before you come on a national forum and start bashing people. I do have another question for you being that your are so outraged that a coral had bite marks on it. Are you the person that received the frag with the supposed bite marks on it?

What business have I named and "bashed"? None sir. So I'd recommend taking a step back and looking at this a bit differently than you are. I'm not sure what agenda you have, but it seems fairly clear to me that you are taking a thread personally when I've done nothing but spotlight an issue in our hobby that has really been the elephant ear mushroom in the tank (see what I did there?).

 

[TJ's Reef]

I had closed this thread yesterday with Ronnie's approval as felt that it had ran its productive course. Rev opened it back up in hopes of continuing a respectful and mature dialogue, so let's keep it that way. Ronnie has done an excellent job in keeping this an awareness of an issue within in our industry that needs to be addressed for it to ever change for the better. There has been no direct 'Bashing' and some of the better Vendors have stated their approval and compliment this open discussion as it affects all of them good or bad. For whatever reason many of you cannot seem to see or get the message that has been spoken here by many, "It is everyone's responsibility to deal with pests from the top down" and none has implied it to be the sole responsibility of the Vendor. People/Businesses often do what they are allowed to do or what is acceptable for the bottom profit line, this thread/discussion is to make aware to all hobbyists that we don't have to accept what has become status quo in general and to inform all Vendors that the bar has now been raised if they would like us to continue to support them. IMHO all this is a positive for everyone involved who is on the up and up. Once again, IMHO I think that most are.

Cheers, Todd

 

[SloppyJ]

Thank you TJ and Rev.

 

[ronnie]

I'm fairly certain I've owned the fact that I got aefw. It's on me. Hands down. No argument. Case closed.

Everyone should dip any coral they get. Period. Everyone. That means everyone. Not just some. Everyone. From the start to the end - everyone.

And it starts with awareness and pushing back on vendors to improve their processes. That's what needs to happen, not because I want any businesses to close. It needs to happen because it's the right thing to do.

Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. That applies here to all levels.

 

[always reefin]

I'm fairly certain I've owned the fact that I got aefw. It's on me. Hands down. No argument. Case closed.

Everyone should dip any coral they get. Period. Everyone. That means everyone. Not just some. Everyone. From the start to the end - everyone.

And it starts with awareness and pushing back on vendors to improve their processes. That's what needs to happen, not because I want any businesses to close. It needs to happen because it's the right thing to do.

Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. That applies here to all levels.

to me it's common sense, really don't believe we are even having this conversation. I believe most truly know the reason why

 

[Pete polyp]

From what I read is aefw do not lay eggs on living acro tissue. And I have also read that bayer kills aefw (besides a report of a resistant strain).

If that information is accurate then could the solution be as easy as to dip one time and cut away any non living skeleton or base?

So if frags are dipped immediately after fragging there should be no aefw or eggs present. It just doesn't seem that easy to me. But, if that information is correct and there are no eggs on acro, and Bayer kills all the aefw wouldn't it work? Say I have a known aefw infestation in tank A. I frag a colony from tank A and before I put it into tank B I dip in Bayer. (Lets just take for granted that every last aefw was killed on the frag during the dip) what would the possibility of ever having aefw show up in tank B?

 

[ritter6788]

From what I read is aefw do not lay eggs on living acro tissue. And I have also read that bayer kills aefw (besides a report of a resistant strain).

If that information is accurate then could the solution be as easy as to dip one time and cut away any non living skeleton or base?

So if frags are dipped immediately after fragging there should be no aefw or eggs present. It just doesn't seem that easy to me. But, if that information is correct and there are no eggs on acro, and Bayer kills all the aefw wouldn't it work? Say I have a known aefw infestation in tank A. I frag a colony from tank A and before I put it into tank B I dip in Bayer. (Lets just take for granted that every last aefw was killed on the frag during the dip) what would the possibility of ever having aefw show up in tank B?

I recently broke all the acros out of my 75 to rid the tank of aefw and red bugs. I've had red bugs for a while but got aefw last year even though I dip everything. There were zero flatworm eggs on healthy tissue. I fragged every coral making sure not to add any rock, plug or skeleton to the dip. I only dipped living acro parts with no bare skeleton exposed. It's been over a month and I haven't seen any aefw in the frag tank. I did the same process and put them back in the 75 and so far they look great and appear to be pest free. From now on no plugs or base rock will go into my tank no matter who the coral is from.

 

[Pete polyp]

So its really that easy? If vendors and hobbyists alike all dipped directly after fragging and placed the frags into a clean tank the problem is solved? It can't be that easy..... There has to be a missing link...

I'm just brainstorming and maybe others might as well to find a resolve for this issue.