Where does pest responsibility start?

[ronnie]

Who's job is it? Ultimately, it is the hobbyists to be proactive and dip to protect their own tanks. But should vendors and even wholesalers take the time to provide quality pest free marine life or not?

What about the vendors that are really busy?

Please don't name names here - I'd like to get feedback to see if I'm off base after another thread was stalled due to becoming off track.

Thoughts?

 

[Tahoe61]

An educated/informed hobbyist is aware that pest get past a lot of hobbyist and some distributors, it's just that black and white. Since I am aware of this it's my responsibility to take the proper precautions before adding fish or corals to my tank.

 

[gpdno]

For fish, I will always QT before they go into my DT. Now some of my LFS are better than others so if the fish look unhealthy and in poor condition I'm not buying from them but that is my choice. Just as providing livestock is their choice and a busses decision on how to make a profit based on there business model.

Same for coral. The frag may look really cool but if the plug is covered in algae I'm unlikely to buy it. So again, I am marketing a choice based on my experience and observations.

But ultimately, it's my tank and my responsibility to take care of my little bit of ocean. Nothing is going to go into it if I feel it might harm the environment. So personally, I don't feel it is the suppliers job to provide me with high quality marine life, it's my job to make sure only high quality marine life go into my tank.

 

[Defect]

I think it is the tank owners responsibility. If you decide to purchase online you should be taking the nessesary actions to keep your tank out of harms way as much as possible. With the amount of items the online vendors sell I would see it being impossible for some things to get missed no matter how good they are.

Edit: Now if you know a vendor is sending out infested product that is a different story but how would you ever be able to tell.....

 

[ronnie]

I think it is the tank owners responsibility. If you decide to purchase online you should be taking the nessesary actions to keep your tank out of harms way as much as possible. With the amount of items the online vendors sell I would see it being impossible for some things to get missed no matter how good they are.

Edit: Now if you know a vendor is sending out infested product that is a different story but how would you ever be able to tell.....

With pics and by being proactive and dipping them. The challenge is getting the vendors to change their methods. Some feel that they are too busy to maintain healthy livestock, and that is a business decision. However, if we continue to support those vendors, why should they change?

 

[Mike J.]

Since it's a two part question I'll give two responses. There is no way I'd ever put anything (snail to acro) in my tank without observing it first in an observation tank. I've had pests come in on snails.

I would never sell anything to another person, not just saltwater stuff, that was defective, unless I told them about the defect. Just the way I do business, because I want to stay in business. I'm a general contractor and I actually guarantee workmanship for one year on everything I do. Very rarely do I get called on it, but if I do, I'm right there.

 

[ritter6788]

I think there's a difference in getting pests from someone and someone selling something with known pests. Hitchhikers happen and it's impossible to account for every microscopic creature on the reef. If something is obviously infested with pests it shouldn't be sold.

I treat every fish/coral as if it's infested with ich/aefw now. I've got ich on fish from one of the top tier vendors in the hobby that are supposedly QT'd before shipping out. I also got aefw from one of the bigger, well known coral vendors.

I don't blame them for it if the livestock is healthy but sending out corals or fish in bad health with obvious pests shouldn't happen and I won't buy from those vendors again.

 

[ronnie]

Agreed. I don't have an issue with someone selling and being unaware. I was that guy three years ago. It happens.

I take issue when a wysiwyg coral that looks great online arrives and the color is way off and there are bite marks and/or aefw on said frags. That becomes a major issue of credibility and ethical dilemma that needs to be fully disclosed to any offending parties. What they do with that info will determine the success of their business.

 

[ronnie]

Also, QT at the end of the line is vital - absolutely. But to me, it seems a flawed business model to provide a faulty or defective product to a customer and not expect backlash or negative results.

 

[Reefing Madness]

An educated/informed hobbyist is aware that pest get past a lot of hobbyist and some distributors, it's just that black and white. Since I am aware of this it's my responsibility to take the proper precautions before adding fish or corals to my tank.

I second this.

 

[ronnie]

I second this.

Do you believe it's ok for vendors to pass these "defective" frags on to hobbyists, though?

 

[always reefin]

Since it's a two part question I'll give two responses. There is no way I'd ever put anything (snail to acro) in my tank without observing it first in an observation tank. I've had pests come in on snails.

I would never sell anything to another person, not just saltwater stuff, that was defective, unless I told them about the defect. Just the way I do business, because I want to stay in business. I'm a general contractor and I actually guarantee workmanship for one year on everything I do. Very rarely do I get called on it, but if I do, I'm right there.

way to go Mike! we need more like you

 

[Mike J.]

Do you believe it's ok for vendors to pass these "defective" frags on to hobbyists, though?

Do you know how to do one of those polls? My vote, NO. If it's not accidental and due to a lack of caring, it'd be on then.

 

[Aquaph8]

Do you believe it's ok for vendors to pass these "defective" frags on to hobbyists, though?

Knowingly no, I dont think its OK. This day and age they should at least attempt a QT process but as hobbiests I dont think we can really trust anybody when it comes to adding stuff to our tanks. I do like the vendors that show some effort and feel that if they QT then it makes my job easier in the long run. Even with fish, even though I can cure a fish of paracites it is such a better experience from a customer stand point if I dont have to. I do honestly feel that good vendors, even the ones that take a proactive approach are gonna have pests from time to time, its part of the business and we need to do what is best for our own tanks.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Before the thread gets too off track, and back to the OP question, I think it is everyone's responsibility in the supply chain's responsibility to attempt to control pests. No one is perfect and the pests are after all naturally occurring, its not as though anyone is adding them intentionally-if someone knowingly sold something infested that is a different issue and proving they actually knew for sure might be difficult, but that is another issue entirely from the OP question IMO. It is everyone's responsibility in the supply chain. Not trying to hold myself up as perfect, but I set up a collection station in Tahiti and as part of that process set in place a strict policy for fish. Every fish goes through several freshwater dips, copper treatment, and antibiotic treatment and is held and eating before being shipped. Now this takes time and costs, in this process fish can be held for several weeks before being exported. Then once here in the US they are acclimated and held in isolated tanks and treated as needed. Then once a hobbyist buys that fish it must be in QT and treated as needed. Even though all that work goes into the treatment and handling is done beforehand it is still the responsibility of the hobbyist to protect their tank and investment. Even if all the previous steps were perfect, stress occurs during shipping that can lead to illness and therefore QT is vital. Pests on corals can be very difficult for a collector, exporter, wholesaler, or even vendor to notice despite doing regular preventative treatments. Any larger vendor can handle literally thousands of corals weekly, not making any excuses and not saying we are perfect, but for corals I would say the reality in our industry would be the burden would tend to fall more on the hobbyist with corals. Again, that is not to excuse anyone not doing regular prevention and treatment but the fact that lifecycles of pests and the shear volume being dealt with no on can absolutely guarantee 100% pest free. Every vendor should have protocols in place, but to expect 100% control of naturally occurring pests is unrealistic. Everyone is responsible, but ultimately it is your investment of time and hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars so always QT, inspect, treat regardless of vendor or hobbyist you get anything from.

 

[always reefin]

Knowingly no, I dont think its OK. This day and age they should at least attempt a QT process but as hobbiests I dont think we can really trust anybody when it comes to adding stuff to our tanks. I do like the vendors that show some effort and feel that if they QT then it makes my job easier in the long run. Even with fish, even though I can cure a fish of paracites it is such a better experience from a customer stand point if I dont have to. I do honestly feel that good vendors, even the ones that take a proactive approach are gonna have pests from time to time, its part of the business and we need to do what is best for our own tanks.

the problem is if the vendor has pests and does nothing to rid them then most likely they will just continue to sell and ship affected stock. Some where along the line the vendor has to take care of business too

 

[ronnie]

Agreed Brett. It'll happen. One slipping through is one thing.

But consistently selling frags that are light in color (SPS) with bite marks clearly showing AEFW damage is irresponsible. A refund for said coral doesn't cut it, either.

 

[pirate2876]

My tank contracted velvet from a fish from a lfs. I think the store intended to infect my fish by not telling me they could possibly have velvet. Even though they could have run an autopsy on fish that have perished there.I am now suing them because they neglected to tell me the risk I should have known.

#sarcasmoff

 

[ronnie]

Before the thread gets too off track, and back to the OP question, I think it is everyone's responsibility in the supply chain's responsibility to attempt to control pests. No one is perfect and the pests are after all naturally occurring, its not as though anyone is adding them intentionally-if someone knowingly sold something infested that is a different issue and proving they actually knew for sure might be difficult, but that is another issue entirely from the OP question IMO. It is everyone's responsibility in the supply chain. Not trying to hold myself up as perfect, but I set up a collection station in Tahiti and as part of that process set in place a strict policy for fish. Every fish goes through several freshwater dips, copper treatment, and antibiotic treatment and is held and eating before being shipped. Now this takes time and costs, in this process fish can be held for several weeks before being exported. Then once here in the US they are acclimated and held in isolated tanks and treated as needed. Then once a hobbyist buys that fish it must be in QT and treated as needed. Even though all that work goes into the treatment and handling is done beforehand it is still the responsibility of the hobbyist to protect their tank and investment. Even if all the previous steps were perfect, stress occurs during shipping that can lead to illness and therefore QT is vital. Pests on corals can be very difficult for a collector, exporter, wholesaler, or even vendor to notice despite doing regular preventative treatments. Any larger vendor can handle literally thousands of corals weekly, not making any excuses and not saying we are perfect, but for corals I would say the reality in our industry would be the burden would tend to fall more on the hobbyist with corals. Again, that is not to excuse anyone not doing regular prevention and treatment but the fact that lifecycles of pests and the shear volume being dealt with no on can absolutely guarantee 100% pest free. Every vendor should have protocols in place, but to expect 100% control of naturally occurring pests is unrealistic. Everyone is responsible, but ultimately it is your investment of time and hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars so always QT, inspect, treat regardless of vendor or hobbyist you get anything from.

Thanks for joining. I appreciate your candor.

I'm far from an expert, but I think if the end user is able to effectively eradicate coral, that those processes could be easily ramped up to production scale and handle a large volume. I'm very process driven, and I'd look at ways to effectively add these protocols into a business of this nature if I were in it.

My costs would likely be higher, but how much revenue is lost from one or two (or numerous) incidents of frags arriving in poor condition and pests being clearly evident?

Also, how are some vendors able to avoid this? There are several on R2R that I've never seen any issues from them. I think it would be great if the vendors would pool their knowledge and work to develop a program that they can all implement to ensure the best scenario. Almost like an ISO protocol for coral vendors. Maybe this exists?

 

[Aquaph8]

the problem is if the vendor has pests and does nothing to rid them then most likely they will just continue to sell and ship affected stock. Some where along the line the vendor has to take care of business too

I think we need to expect better but asume the worst. Theres a bunch of places to buy corals though.

Agreed Brett. It'll happen. One slipping through is one thing.

But consistently selling frags that are light in color (SPS) with bite marks clearly showing AEFW damage is irresponsible. A refund for said coral doesn't cut it, either.

Light in color happens, some of the nicest frags I have were really light when I got them. Its the dark brown or white ones that drive me crazy. When buying stuff online, a refund is really all they got to offer.