Where does pest responsibility start?

[SCMatt]

I would think those protocols would be worth the time/investment given how fast information spreads now.

Both sides are responsible. It should be a two part process, vendor does their own QT and treatment.....real QT and treatment not just holding it for a little while and sending it on, and then I as a hobbyist should do my own to cover my bases.

On the freshwater side of things I'm into discus, mainly wild discus but any really. Most trustworthy vendors of the discus will have at least a 2 week QT time from the time they land in the states until they are shipped to me the customer and theres zero chance you can get the fish before then unless you pick them up in person and assume all responsibilities with what happens. I then do my own round of QT and worming even after buying from reputable vendors that I consider good friends. I don't think it should be any different coral wise. In my mind its simple quality control, I wouldn't want pests or bad frags leaving my business to the customer no matter what, no matter my sales volume, no matter if I work from home or in a coral warehouse, and no matter how many employees I have. This hobby is way to small of a community in the grand scheme of things to base your reputation off sending out questionable stock.

At the end of the day I will be doing my own QT and if I find anything of note I will post about it (after speaking with the vendor of course) to hopefully save someone else from disaster. Welcome to the age of information where theres no where to hide.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Thanks for joining. I appreciate your candor.

I'm far from an expert, but I think if the end user is able to effectively eradicate coral, that those processes could be easily ramped up to production scale and handle a large volume. I'm very process driven, and I'd look at ways to effectively add these protocols into a business of this nature if I were in it.

My costs would likely be higher, but how much revenue is lost from one or two (or numerous) incidents of frags arriving in poor condition and pests being clearly evident?

Also, how are some vendors able to avoid this? There are several on R2R that I've never seen any issues from them. I think it would be great if the vendors would pool their knowledge and work to develop a program that they can all implement to ensure the best scenario. Almost like an ISO protocol for coral vendors. Maybe this exists?

Absolutely, legit vendors have such protocols in place. I am a veterinarian and in my previous career I worked for a large food production company and set up their food safety protocols, HACCP, and ISO certification so I am very familiar with such processes. Implementing such in the coral trade with pests is another issue. Lifecycles of pests and competitive issues make this difficult. Everyone is responsible for their part though and legit vendors take it seriously, no one is perfect but no excuses for selling known infested product-not accusing anyone of anything and understanding this is a hot potato issue.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Do you believe it's ok for vendors to pass these "defective" frags on to hobbyists, though?

To me, it is what it is. All things can't be helped, or taken care of in an aquarium setting. Even the local guys here have some issues from time to time. Doesn't bother me in the least. Theres no difference between getting a Coral with a bug or buying a fish with a bug (Ich) You QT or you get in trouble. ( Well some of us roll the dice and don't QT anything )

 

[ronnie]

Will you buy an acro if the guy is up front and tells you he has aefw? Or do you pass?

 

[Reefing Madness]

I dip. Oh, and I buy cheap, so I probably would try it once or twice.

 

[ronnie]

I dip.

Is that a yes?

And do you dip or QT? I dipped every coral that went into the last two tanks and I'm battling aefw for the second time.

 

[Reefing Madness]

So you dipped and still gotta battle it? Howd that happen?
Yes, I'd dip the corals from an unknown.
I've bought visibly stressed out fish before also. You do what you can with what you have. Hoping that you can fix it. Sometimes it can't be done, I know it sucks, but, sometimes thats just the way it is.

 

[ronnie]

Dipping does nothing for eggs, and some flatworms can still hang on (or possibly be small enough to be inside a corallite (theoretically anyways) through the dip process.

 

[Mike J.]

Oh, that explains the passion. I don't want to say this (I'm knocking wood). My two larger tanks have never had to be treated for anything, 10 years and almost 5 years old. Am I lucky or do I have an observation tank and a quarantine tank?

Some people dip corals and treat fish no matter what. I do not dip corals or treat fish unless there is a problem observed. As the person from PEA said, they do that, then most likely the person that buys from them and sells to me does to. I figure the specimen is already stressed out enough.

 

[ronnie]

Bayer is so gentle on coral, it is crazy.

 

[ronnie]

Absolutely, legit vendors have such protocols in place. I am a veterinarian and in my previous career I worked for a large food production company and set up their food safety protocols, HACCP, and ISO certification so I am very familiar with such processes. Implementing such in the coral trade with pests is another issue. Lifecycles of pests and competitive issues make this difficult. Everyone is responsible for their part though and legit vendors take it seriously, no one is perfect but no excuses for selling known infested product-not accusing anyone of anything and understanding this is a hot potato issue.

Typically in my day to day interactions with folks, they only get mad or worked up because they know they are wrong or aren't doing something that they know they could.

So I think that's why it is such a hot topic. Plus, it really stings to lose $1000 in coral because of something like a vendor not taking the time to QT appropriately.

 

[hunterwsd]

Okay so I want to start off by saying I'm fairly new to this site but definitely not the hobby. In regards to your light in color comment is it not common knowledge that acros will lose some color in shipment? Especially when they have just arrived? (referring to the pictures). I quote you here saying, "The challenge is getting the vendors to change their methods. Some feel that they are too busy to maintain healthy livestock, and that is a business decision. However, if we continue to support those vendors, why should they change?". If they are simply bite marks not the flat worms themselves does that not have even the slightest indication they are maintaing their livestock? Wouldn't that mean they are dipping them? To spell it out for you doesn't that mean they may be taking care of the problem? It would be one thing if the piece was infested upon arrival but it definitely didn't look like that. Btw how does a refund for said coral not cut it? what do you expect a kiss and hug with your money? Have a good one.

 

[Pete polyp]

To have a consumer assume the product they receive to be infested with pests is completely absurd. Sadly, this is what we have come to expect of this industry. Saying that there will be an occasional pest make its way through and its acceptable is like saying its acceptable for a slaughterhouse to let a bovine with mad cow disease slip by occasionally and make its way to the consumer. The expectations of quality in this industry is in the toilet. We all should demand better, vendors and suppliers included. Many other industries have strict quality control to keep this type of situation from happening. If the proper measures would be taken to ensure a better product, then we would get better products. If a vendor can't handle moving thousands of corals every month and not inspect each piece to ensure a higher quality then they aren't capable of doing it. The same goes for the suppliers and collectors. If better quality control was implemented by everyone involved then these issues would clear up over time. As for now, there are many businesses who have bitten off more than they can chew. With this the burden is placed completely on the hobbyists to protect their pets. The vendors that are not selling pest free livestock will be hit hard financially and may not survive if they refuse to implement better procedures to prevent this. It may cut into their profits.... Which I doubt will happen... But its better to make $1 than $0. The companies absorbing the additional cost will not happen, and it will result in higher prices. What I can't figure out is that most of the vendors that have been called out for having coral pests are selling frags at an ultra premium price. $100 for a frag? Have you seen the amazing colonies for this price that don't have a name attached? My point is that we as a whole should expect, even demand better. There are many retailers out there that are doing this the right way, and moving large volume without ever having pests. If these people.can do it so should everyone else. Its time to set a higher standard!

 

[Pete polyp]

Something else that bugged me was when it was stated shipping will cause parasites. I do not care how stressed a coral gets during shipping, aefw isn't going to magically appear. Actually, the same goes with fish. If a fish gets stressed during shipping the only way for it to have ich is if ich was already present. Parasites don't just magically appear in the shipping bag. They're already present in the water or on the livestock (fish and coral alike).

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Something else that bugged me was when it was stated shipping will cause parasites. I do not care how stressed a coral gets during shipping, aefw isn't going to magically appear. Actually, the same goes with fish. If a fish gets stressed during shipping the only way for it to have ich is if ich was already present. Parasites don't just magically appear in the shipping bag. They're already present in the water or on the livestock (fish and coral alike).

Most legit vendors do have protocols and procedures in place to treat and prevent pests, it is unfortunately the nature of the beast not to expect 100% control to be realistic. That's not an excuse for collectors, exporters, wholesalers, and vendors not to do their part, that is just a fact of the nature of that we are dealing live animals and to not also QT everything yourself just to be safe is foolish IMO. No one is claiming pests magically show up in the shipping bag, most certainly not with coral, with fish the parasite may always be on them and takes over when the animal is stressed such as during shipping. Fish and corals, two different things as far as pests/parasites. It can happen that a quarantined and treated and perfect looking fish can get shipped and show up with some visible spots. It however should not be covered or have torn or rotting fins, etc. No one is making excuses for dealing with large volume and being sloppy, nor making that as an excuse for the end consumer to expect anything less than perfection. But, with the investment every hobbyist has in their reef and the reality that we are dealing with live animals and naturally occurring pests with complex and varying lifecycles it again would be foolish not to routinely QT everything. I'm not suggesting a shift in responsibility or blame to the end consumer, I'm just pointing out the reality of the nature of the product we all are dealing with. We all have some part in the responsibility, even the hobbyist. Yes, demand perfection, yell and scream when it is not there, but please be realistic and respectful too. We are all aware of the issues and most of us that are legit really do care and are trying as best we can. If we were dealing in inanimate objects than yes absolutely demand 110% and name names and do whatever else reasonable to get satisfaction, but we are not dealing with that, we are dealing with live animal that unfortunately do in fact have a set of pests and parasites that can infest them and it is everyone's responsibility along the entire supply chain to do what ever they can to lessen the burden.

 

[Eienna]

Most legit vendors do have protocols and procedures in place to treat and prevent pests, it is unfortunately the nature of the beast not to expect 100% control to be realistic. That's not an excuse for collectors, exporters, wholesalers, and vendors not to do their part, that is just a fact of the nature of that we are dealing live animals and to not also QT everything yourself just to be safe is foolish IMO. No one is claiming pests magically show up in the shipping bag, most certainly not with coral, with fish the parasite may always be on them and takes over when the animal is stressed such as during shipping. Fish and corals, two different things as far as pests/parasites. It can happen that a quarantined and treated and perfect looking fish can get shipped and show up with some visible spots. It however should not be covered or have torn or rotting fins, etc. No one is making excuses for dealing with large volume and being sloppy, nor making that as an excuse for the end consumer to expect anything less than perfection. But, with the investment every hobbyist has in their reef and the reality that we are dealing with live animals and naturally occurring pests with complex and varying lifecycles it again would be foolish not to routinely QT everything. I'm not suggesting a shift in responsibility or blame to the end consumer, I'm just pointing out the reality of the nature of the product we all are dealing with. We all have some part in the responsibility, even the hobbyist. Yes, demand perfection, yell and scream when it is not there, but please be realistic and respectful too. We are all aware of the issues and most of us that are legit really do care and are trying as best we can. If we were dealing in inanimate objects than yes absolutely demand 110% and name names and do whatever else reasonable to get satisfaction, but we are not dealing with that, we are dealing with live animal that unfortunately do in fact have a set of pests and parasites that can infest them and it is everyone's responsibility along the entire supply chain to do what ever they can to lessen the burden.

I'd also like to point out that unlike the aforementioned slaughtered cows you can't autopsy a live fish to check it for unseen diseases, early stages of internal parasites, etc. Also, what about a coral that is not, say, infested with any adult worms, but an egg or two happens to slip into the bag or a crack where it can't be seen? You can't catch everything.

I totally agree, quarantine and care should be taken on both ends. Nobody's perfect.

The overwhelming thought I'm having here is that a vendor who does not care for their livestock properly, in today's more-educated (well, getting there) reefing world, is not likely to last. You can't get away with being sloppy and keep customers very long. Even if it's not the vendor's "responsibility," it's still really an important practice just to stay in business these days. Sure, certain ones may bamboozle a lot of beginners, but that only pays the bills until too many wise up...and especially for a brick-and-mortar business, this could easily become crippling over time as their customer base disappears. Not to mention that news travels fast over the internet.

 

[Eienna]

Something else that bugged me was when it was stated shipping will cause parasites. I do not care how stressed a coral gets during shipping, aefw isn't going to magically appear. Actually, the same goes with fish. If a fish gets stressed during shipping the only way for it to have ich is if ich was already present. Parasites don't just magically appear in the shipping bag. They're already present in the water or on the livestock (fish and coral alike).

They didn't mean shipping causes parasites. What they meant was the shipping can cause unseen parasites, those that the fish was keeping "under the radar" with their immune systems up to that point, to become apparent.

 

[ronnie]

Okay so I want to start off by saying I'm fairly new to this site but definitely not the hobby. In regards to your light in color comment is it not common knowledge that acros will lose some color in shipment? Especially when they have just arrived? (referring to the pictures). I quote you here saying, "The challenge is getting the vendors to change their methods. Some feel that they are too busy to maintain healthy livestock, and that is a business decision. However, if we continue to support those vendors, why should they change?". If they are simply bite marks not the flat worms themselves does that not have even the slightest indication they are maintaing their livestock? Wouldn't that mean they are dipping them? To spell it out for you doesn't that mean they may be taking care of the problem? It would be one thing if the piece was infested upon arrival but it definitely didn't look like that. Btw how does a refund for said coral not cut it? what do you expect a kiss and hug with your money? Have a good one.

Glad this topic could get you to make your first post.

Let's delve into your post:

1. Color loss is typical to an extent with shipping. Normally, though, this means browned out, not many I've seen come in considerably lighter.

2a. Bite marks imply a fresh problem. Acropora grow at a pretty incredible rate under the right conditions. I would wager to say that if an acro had one bite taken out of it, and then the flatworm were removed right after, that the bite would heal quickly - in two or three days. Overall color would probably not suffer, either.

2b. If there are bites, there are worms and/or eggs 99.81% of the time. Now, does it mean that a vendor that moves thousands of frags is trying to take care of it? Maybe. But what it does imply is that said vendor is aware of the problem yet continues to sell. That is an ethical issue. Not good in my book, nor most others.


3. On the piece being infested (I'm assuming on the thread you are referencing, and will not name it) - one flatworm on a frag that is 1" will turn into thousands of flatworms on every acro in your tank. So yes, I believe any flatworms or eggs present is officially an "infestation"

4. How does a refund not cut it? When you lose thousands of dollars of other frags because the frag you bought came in with eggs or flatworms. That's how. I have personally lost about $1500 worth of reef raft acros this year because of flatworms from another piece. So unless I see a check for all of those acros, as well as all of the time I spend dipping for 60 days, then nothing "cuts it". Now, I realize that is unrealistic, and it's really my fault for either buying from a vendor with a poor dipping protocol and/or not QT'ing. That part has been remedied as I am setting up a dedicated QT to ensure no pests will ever decimate my tanks again.

Love your locale, too! LOL

 

[Pete polyp]

Most legit vendors do have protocols and procedures in place to treat and prevent pests, it is unfortunately the nature of the beast not to expect 100% control to be realistic. That's not an excuse for collectors, exporters, wholesalers, and vendors not to do their part, that is just a fact of the nature of that we are dealing live animals and to not also QT everything yourself just to be safe is foolish IMO. No one is claiming pests magically show up in the shipping bag, most certainly not with coral, with fish the parasite may always be on them and takes over when the animal is stressed such as during shipping. Fish and corals, two different things as far as pests/parasites. It can happen that a quarantined and treated and perfect looking fish can get shipped and show up with some visible spots. It however should not be covered or have torn or rotting fins, etc. No one is making excuses for dealing with large volume and being sloppy, nor making that as an excuse for the end consumer to expect anything less than perfection. But, with the investment every hobbyist has in their reef and the reality that we are dealing with live animals and naturally occurring pests with complex and varying lifecycles it again would be foolish not to routinely QT everything. I'm not suggesting a shift in responsibility or blame to the end consumer, I'm just pointing out the reality of the nature of the product we all are dealing with. We all have some part in the responsibility, even the hobbyist. Yes, demand perfection, yell and scream when it is not there, but please be realistic and respectful too. We are all aware of the issues and most of us that are legit really do care and are trying as best we can. If we were dealing in inanimate objects than yes absolutely demand 110% and name names and do whatever else reasonable to get satisfaction, but we are not dealing with that, we are dealing with live animal that unfortunately do in fact have a set of pests and parasites that can infest them and it is everyone's responsibility along the entire supply chain to do what ever they can to lessen the burden.

I do understand that some parasites can be unseen and slip through. I will not deny that to be a truth. In the case of ich, there really is no excuse. Its a very common parasite and wholesalers should assume every fish to have this parasite. This is one of the easier parasites to treat for, and IMO they can control this with the proper treatment. It would not be hard for them to treat every fish for two weeks to ensure nothing gets out with ich. I have recently had a bad experience with ich from probably the largest retailer and an extremely reputable one. If better quality assurance was the standard we would not be seeing nearly as much of this.

I will agree that how this industry is today the hobbyists must take matters into their own hands to protect their livestock. But the industry as a whole (for the most part) has plenty of room for improvement. My previous post I mentioned that some vendors have not had any problems with pests on corals (at least it hasn't been broadcasted). And my hat is off to these vendors for taking the extra step to ensure a better product. I'm not expecting vendors to be perfect and never have an issue, that would be absurd. The vendors that have become repeat offenders are where I see a big problem.

 

[Xingu]

We hobbyists have created this problem, in a way. Back in the day, the only way to get any livestock for our tanks was to go to our local fish shop and pick them out of their tanks. We were able to observe each piece before purchase. We could decide if it looked good or had problems and make our decision on whether to purchase it. We could only blame ourselves if something bad happened.

Fast forward to the present. We now base our purchase decisions on photos that may or may not be of the piece we decide to purchase. The hobbyist still needs to do his research. Ask around about a vendor you wish to purchase from. If you do not buy WYSIWYG, do not be surprised if you get a fresh cut, under sized or lightly colored frag. Ask the vendor about their QT protocol BEFORE you purchase. ALL vendors will have a problem at some point. They will ALL handle that problem differently.

If you, as a hobbyist, have set up ANY tank without a QT tank and protocol, you are rolling the dice with each new purchase. EVERY system needs to include a QT tank and protocol. You should also print out that protocol and post next to the tank (No, I do not do that). That protocol should also outline at what point you take the loss and destroy a piece of livestock. Do you clean/disinfect every piece of equipment that goes in your tanks after each use? You should. Do you have equipment (nets, glass cleaners, etc..) that are dedicated to each tank that you have? You should. QT is an on going process, it doesn't stop when you transfer a piece to the DT. Aquariums have been around for a very long time. The need to QT has been around for just as long.

If a vendor sends you a piece that you are not happy with, contact the vendor and resolve it. You can post a review about vendors on just about every forum out there in cyberspace. EVERY vendor has people that LOVE them and people that HATE them. As a potential customer, it is our responsibility to wade through those reviews and make an educated decision. Read the reviews, look for the honest reviews (good and bad) ignore the bashing and piling on and make your own decision. YOU are the responsible party when making a purchase. It is your decision whether to purchase a particular piece from a particular vendor. The vendor is responsible for the piece that he sold you, nothing more. EVERY piece you put in your system has the potential to wipe it out. You have to take steps to minimize that potential. Most vendors have posted their return policy on their website. Most vendors (IME) will also go above and beyond what their posted policies are, if you contact them in a respectable manner.

In many areas the days of LFS purchases have gone the way of the dinosaur, but we are still responsible for what goes in our aquariums. If you purchased something, put it straight into your DT and spread a disease or parasite, shame on you. The importance of QT has been stressed for a very long time. It is not hard to do. It is time consuming. It is required. It is not foolproof.