Where does pest responsibility start?

[ronnie]

LFS are not immune either. I've seen red bugs and flatworms in there as well. But we do have the advantage of being able to visually check.

If we don't support vendors that have poor protocols in place, then they won't be in business long. That's the best we can do beyond QT'ing everything we get.

 

[SloppyJ]

I'm a little biased to this thread. I know the OP and shared the same AEFW battle with him. Luckily I only had one encrusted acro that I had to take out. It was really sad taking a screw driver to that rock and setting a living specimen in the sun to die. I hated it and I wish it upon nobody in this hobby.

Here's how I stand on this topic, it's everyone's responsibility but it starts with the vendor. If the vendor obviously knows there is a problem, this knowledge should be passed on the the consumer. What really upset me was the fact that the vendor tried to justify it by saying they let high end pieces go for cheap. I don't care if you gave them away, that's an awful business model and IMO just plain unethical.

I understand things slip through the cracks and I'm 100% accepting of that. I also understand that they have money tied up into these frags that they need to get back out. I think they should try as hard as the end user in this situation to eradicate the pests. In our situation this didn't happen, they just sold more volume at a lower price.

 

[SCMatt]

Here's how I stand on this topic, it's everyone's responsibility but it starts with the vendor. If the vendor obviously knows there is a problem, this knowledge should be passed on the the consumer. What really upset me was the fact that the vendor tried to justify it by saying they let high end pieces go for cheap. I don't care if you gave them away, that's an awful business model and IMO just plain unethical.

This x 100. Don't care if its a $10 frag or a $500 frag I expect it to be pest free. If pests are known, simply state it or put in a disclaimer which would cover you as a seller later.

 

[ronnie]

Honesty is pretty much always better than ignorance or playing the "I have 3000 corals to handle, there's no way I can care for them all" statement. I'd be fired if I used those kinds of excuses.

And that is all it is, really. An excuse. Why do we settle?

 

[Jimbo]

Not only do we settle some excuse them of any blame. By saying " they can't help it, they're handling thousands of frags" aren't you in fact saying " they're a Chop Shop, they can't help it?"

 

[ronnie]

Good point. I hadn't thought about that angle. That would seem to be the case in most instances.

 

[gpdno]

To have a consumer assume the product they receive to be infested with pests is completely absurd. Sadly, this is what we have come to expect of this industry. Saying that there will be an occasional pest make its way through and its acceptable is like saying its acceptable for a slaughterhouse to let a bovine with mad cow disease slip by occasionally and make its way to the consumer. The expectations of quality in this industry is in the toilet. We all should demand better, vendors and suppliers included. Many other industries have strict quality control to keep this type of situation from happening. If the proper measures would be taken to ensure a better product, then we would get better products. If a vendor can't handle moving thousands of corals every month and not inspect each piece to ensure a higher quality then they aren't capable of doing it. The same goes for the suppliers and collectors. If better quality control was implemented by everyone involved then these issues would clear up over time. As for now, there are many businesses who have bitten off more than they can chew. With this the burden is placed completely on the hobbyists to protect their pets. The vendors that are not selling pest free livestock will be hit hard financially and may not survive if they refuse to implement better procedures to prevent this. It may cut into their profits.... Which I doubt will happen... But its better to make $1 than $0. The companies absorbing the additional cost will not happen, and it will result in higher prices. What I can't figure out is that most of the vendors that have been called out for having coral pests are selling frags at an ultra premium price. $100 for a frag? Have you seen the amazing colonies for this price that don't have a name attached? My point is that we as a whole should expect, even demand better. There are many retailers out there that are doing this the right way, and moving large volume without ever having pests. If these people.can do it so should everyone else. Its time to set a higher standard!

I've got to disagree. We just adopted a dog from the pound. First thing we did was get her rabbis shot, heart worm and flea/tick medication. It is really know different. As people have stated before, disease, parasites, bugs, etc... Are all part of life and they happen for many different reasons. My aquarium is ultimately my responsibility. I need to be aware and treat any problems that develop, just like I do with the puppy.

 

[ronnie]

Actually, pounds treat for all of those things. It's in their best interest because if they can't rehome the dogs, they die.

 

[Tahoe61]

Business is self regulating. If Hostess sold moldy Twinkies and cupcakes they would go out of business. It's a buyer beware world, yes you can get the word out, but some people have to buy that moldy Twinkie no matter what you say, it's human nature. If enough people are happy with a product from a distributor that you've had a bad experience with then do not buy from them (stating the obvious)notify the distributor of your dissatisfaction. Some people are satisfied with cubic zirconia, some will take nothing less then diamonds. Bluntly put you're not going to find a distributor that puts out a perfect product 100% of the time. It's each individuals right to decide what is acceptable and you're not going to change that.

 

[ronnie]

It's not all about the product. It's about service after the sale (and before as well). It's how vendors react in times of distress that will make the difference.

 

[Xingu]

So you expect a vendor to replace everything in your system because you didn't do your due diligence to assure a disease/parasite free coral. That's crazy. The vendor is responsible for the coral he sold you. If there was a problem, the vendor should replace it or issue a credit for that piece. End of story. Vendors have to draw the line somewhere otherwise people would take advantage of them, claiming disaster and expecting freebies. Some customers are never happy. I can understand wanting a disclaimer stating that they are currently battling "XXXXX" in their system, but in most cases this isn't going to happen. What if I went to a local frag swap and bought a piece from another hobbyist or club member that ended up wiping out my system. What should I do?

Like I stated earlier, customers should post honest reviews, of their personal experiences, on the forums for other hobbyists to see. The system is self governing (even if it isn't quick enough for some). The bad vendors will eventually be forced to change how they do business or forced out of business all together.

 

[ronnie]

You must have missed reading the part where I said it was unrealistic.

I expect anyone - hobbyist or vendor to disclose any issue they have when selling. Ethics and morality are like that.

 

[always reefin]

You must have missed reading the part where I said it was unrealistic.

I expect anyone - hobbyist or vendor to disclose any issue they have when selling. Ethics and morality are like that.

100% agree

 

[Pete polyp]

I've got to disagree. We just adopted a dog from the pound. First thing we did was get her rabbis shot, heart worm and flea/tick medication. It is really know different. As people have stated before, disease, parasites, bugs, etc... Are all part of life and they happen for many different reasons. My aquarium is ultimately my responsibility. I need to be aware and treat any problems that develop, just like I do with the puppy.

You do realize its against the law for a vendor to sell dogs without proper vaccinations right? You adopted a dog, we are not adopting corals. I do understand you had to pay adoption fees and vaccinations etc. but this was not a retail purchase. In these cases people are paying good money for their livestock, not adopting.

 

[Xingu]

You must have missed reading the part where I said it was unrealistic.

I expect anyone - hobbyist or vendor to disclose any issue they have when selling. Ethics and morality are like that.

How many vendors (or even hobbyists) have you seen disclose they are selling infested corals? I have not seen anything more than a standard disclaimer stating that they try to ensure healthy specimens, but that there is no 100% guarantee. That is why most hobbyists assume there is going to be a problem and QT everything. Are there vendors that you would buy from with 100% certainty and put a frag straight into your display? What if he has a single bad frag that wipes your system, is he unethical for not disclosing that?

 

[Xingu]

You do realize its against the law for a vendor to sell dogs without proper vaccinations right? You adopted a dog, we are not adopting corals. I do understand you had to pay adoption fees and vaccinations etc. but this was not a retail purchase. In these cases people are paying good money for their livestock, not adopting.

I think they were just saying that they didn't take the pounds word for it and paid to do it themselves to be sure.

 

[ronnie]

Disclosures and guarantees are completely different.

I could name several vendors that I would have faith in going straight to the display knowing that the likelihood of a pest is very minimal.

 

[Pete polyp]

I think they were just saying that they didn't take the pounds word for it and paid to do it themselves to be sure.

No, its a condition of adoption, not an option

 

[Pete polyp]

How many vendors (or even hobbyists) have you seen disclose they are selling infested corals? I have not seen anything more than a standard disclaimer stating that they try to ensure healthy specimens, but that there is no 100% guarantee. That is why most hobbyists assume there is going to be a problem and QT everything. Are there vendors that you would buy from with 100% certainty and put a frag straight into your display? What if he has a single bad frag that wipes your system, is he unethical for not disclosing that?

I wouldn't ever sell a coral with known pests on them, or buy them for that matter.

And yes, I do have some vendors with thus trust level because they sell 100% aquacultured corals.

 

[ronnie]

And I've seen zero vendors disclose that. I have seen numerous hobbyists disclose it though. So I guess when it's a business, they get too "busy" to mention it, or even check.