Where does pest responsibility start?

[ronnie]

Again, you're excusing the inaction of vendors and allowing them to get away with this. If we make a stand and don't accept it, then it will change. We, as individuals can keep pests out of our tanks. Then why can vendors not do the same? Volume is the worst excuse possible - I don't accept that just because they have a lot to do, it excuses them from properly running coral through QT.

 

[hybridazn]

Again, you're excusing the inaction of vendors and allowing them to get away with this. If we make a stand and don't accept it, then it will change. We, as individuals can keep pests out of our tanks. Then why can vendors not do the same? Volume is the worst excuse possible - I don't accept that just because they have a lot to do, it excuses them from properly running coral through QT.

Your correct, we as individuals can keep pests out of our tanks, by qt and dipping. It seems your trying to start a witch hunt and those who don't agree with you your simply calling them out one by one. No matter how you cut it, your responsible for what goes in your tank. A vendor can only do so much.

 

[River_Styx]

Your correct, we as individuals can keep pests out of our tanks, by qt and dipping. It seems your trying to start a witch hunt and those who don't agree with you your simply calling them out one by one. No matter how you cut it, your responsible for what goes in your tank. A vendor can only do so much.

+1 I think this is becoming less of a "discussion" and more of a "witch hunt/if you don't agree you're wrong."

I think culturally, in America, we are adopting a "its not my fault it's ___." That's why people sue for the most idiotic of things (I cringe at some of the warning labels cause I know it's there cause someone must have done it). I've heard and read people say some of the most idiotic things about what killed what in their tank when really, it was human error/bad water, most likely ("my blue leg hermit was eating my tang this morning, cant believe it killed it!" And I wish I was joking.). It is easier to blame someone else than to take responsibility. I'm sure even I'm guilty of doing such things (not to that extreme) just because it is tough to think that I killed something that could be happily surviving in the ocean and I just ate my money for it.

And I'm not "excusing their actions" (by dipping doesn't that show that they are taking action to prevent outbreaks anyway...?). The ideal that vendors should be pest free is simply that- an ideal. And I think its silly to punish them/oust them for human error when attempting to prevent something that occurs in the natural state of coral reefs.

 

[ronnie]

Your correct, we as individuals can keep pests out of our tanks, by qt and dipping. It seems your trying to start a witch hunt and those who don't agree with you your simply calling them out one by one. No matter how you cut it, your responsible for what goes in your tank. A vendor can only do so much.

I'm all ears. Provide to me solid reasoning why vendors should be allowed to sell acropora with aefw on them. Or any pest on any coral for that matter.

Excuse: "a vendor can only do so much" I am just pointing this out to you. I'm sure you didn't even realize it was an excuse.

If this were a witch hunt, I would be holding people to the fire. I'm not going to name names, I'm here to alter your mindset. Wouldn't we, as hobbyists, be willing to pay a few more dollars in this already uber expensive hobby to ensure that our corals are QT'ed through a standardized process? I know I would. And that still doesn't remove the responsibility of us, as hobbyists, to dip.

You think I'm blaming someone - I'm not. Unless you want me to blame fellow reefers for drinking the koolaid and just accepting that vendors can't help it because of "insert excuse here"

 

[ronnie]

And I'm not "excusing their actions" (by dipping doesn't that show that they are taking action to prevent outbreaks anyway...?). The ideal that vendors should be pest free is simply that- an ideal. And I think its silly to punish them/oust them for human error when attempting to prevent something that occurs in the natural state of coral reefs.

Dipping shows me that they KNOW there is an issue. But they are only hitting the surface.

The idea that they should be pest free should not be ludacris. It should be the standard. We decide that.

Ask some vendors what their dip regimen is. Then you'll realize it's pointless and a waste of time if they are really even doing it.

One vendor recieves coral three times a week. They get an initial dip, then dipped again a week later. Then they go up for sale after cutting wild caught colonies. So they've added in that same tank six different shipments (all initially dipped) and essentially made null and void any dipping, because we know that pests will slip by the first dip through egg form. By two weeks, thousands of eggs have hatched (AEFW) and have now reinfested every coral there, new and old.

 

[nova65ss]

Wouldn't we, as hobbyists, be willing to pay a few more dollars in this already uber expensive hobby to ensure that our corals are QT'ed through a standardized process? I know I would. And that still doesn't remove the responsibility of us, as hobbyists, to dip.

I see where you are coming and agree that if they know they should be upfront and let the buyer know no doubt. But..... I myself would never trust a lfs or anyone for that matters word for saying they are pest free. I assume everyone has pests now and if it is an acro it goes into qt period.

So at the end of the day I would not pay more just because someone told me they are lest free.

 

[ronnie]

Would you pay the same if the vendor told you they were infested with aefw or some other pest?

 

[nova65ss]

Would you pay the same if the vendor told you they were infested with aefw or some other pest?

It makes no difference I will not save any money either way. I have yet to run across someone that admitted to having pests before I bought not sure who in there right mind would do that unless they are breaking down a tank and getting out. This is the problem no one will tell you hey I have pests so I make sure for myself I don't end up with worms in my tank again.

At the end of the day it wouldn't matter as the coral would still go throught the exact qt process as they guy that said he didn't.

 

[ronnie]

QT on our end is vital. I agree completely with that. Not just dipping.

But I would imagine that not many reefers have the willingness to set up a QT - their problem.

I have seen numerous hobbyists state that they have pests. It's not that uncommon.

 

[nova65ss]

QT on our end is vital. I agree completely with that. Not just dipping.

But I would imagine that not many reefers have the willingness to set up a QT - their problem.

I have seen numerous hobbyists state that they have pests. It's not that uncommon.

If they are not willing to do it then whos fault is that?

I know there are a bunch of people with pests some never admit some on my local forums do but they have the common courtesy not to sell.

For me there is one easy answer to the original question and that falls on the end user qting their corals.

 

[ronnie]

It's their fault - for buying from vendors with poor QT procedures.

Like I said, everyone should QT. It's important and I'm not trying to take away from that. But for us to excuse vendors, that doesn't fly with me, and it should fly with anyone.

 

[nova65ss]

It's their fault - for buying from vendors with poor QT procedures.

Like I said, everyone should QT. It's important and I'm not trying to take away from that. But for us to excuse vendors, that doesn't fly with me, and it should fly with anyone.

Everyone should qt yes solves all problems.

I have been to a lot of lfs in several states and I have yet to see one with an acro qt? Let's be honest if they don't they have pests plain and simple.

When you see a vendor on here say we just got these in last week or last month etc you have to know they have not been qtd and will have pests it is not hard to figure out.

 

[ronnie]

Exactly. It's a given when vendors do that that they are trying to move them quickly. Same with LFS. I don't know of any that QT, but I'm betting there is a few out there.

 

[powdermonkey]

-Ronnie-Reeffarmers guarantees their acros to be pest free. I have purchased a few and did not find anything that would suggest differently. You pay for that extra care. Everything I did receive was fresh cuts, my only beef. But we have accepted it to be the standard.
-If a vendor sold you known infected corals there should be a witch hunt. Nothing short! But I highly doubt they would admit to it making it impossible to know that they knew.
-I have found people in this hobby to be shady at best. Whether it be hobbiest or vendors alike. Ive had vendors tell me straight up that they cannot treat their coral they just push too many. Its my responsibility and I'm ok with that.
-The worst phone call I had to make was telling my buddy I have found redbugs. I bought an expensive frag, dipped it and put it in the display, my fault. The problem I had was being told the guy knew he had RB and AEFW. Lucky I only had RB.

 

[ronnie]

That is interesting.

 

[PaulKreider]

I'm not exactly sure why you keep pushing this topic, the specific vendor has offered a refund for any infected frag. And I think its been made clear that no vendor is 100% pest free, its impossible. Your reference to the beef industry is irrelevant since protocol actually allows certain amounts of pest fecal matter per pound of processed meat. And in fact outbreak of e-coli and other things still happen. That's the beef industry, one of the top profiting industries in America. Now to hold a coral vendor to the same standards is absurd, We don't have national agency's setting up regulations about pest control, health ect for our coral vendors, and thank god we don't.

If you go to a farmers market to buy vegetables, I sure hope you wash them.

And if you order frags from a vendor I sure help you inspect and QT them. Ultimately its the buyers responsibility to ensure the frags health before entering it into their system. If you neglected to do so then shame on you, not the vendor for ruining your ecosystem, 30 minutes of your time would have saved thousands.

 

[ronnie]

Why are you against this issue, Paul? You don't want to see improvements in the way corals are handled upstream? I'm not focused on any one specific vendor, either. This is a rampant issue through a majority of our hobby.

I don't get your beef reference either. I think you have confused that with someone else.

A refund doesn't cut it, either. All that does is quiet the buyer so they don't continue to point out issues. When you lose a 120g full of acros the size of basketballs, maybe you'll have a different perspective.

 

[ronnie]

Also, if it were impossible for vendors to be pest free, then it should be impossible for reefers to be as well. I'm certain we are no more well off to handle proper QT than a business that is built on coral sales. Why wouldn't they be the experts in this field? Are they too greedy or uncaring to provide a product at the level of quality with which we all should expect?

 

[nova65ss]

They get new stuff every week they would need about 8 different qt setups to get them through the 8 week qt process.

 

[PaulKreider]

I think the distributers and vendors should take precautions against pests making it down the line, and they do. Fact of the matter is its easier for one person to spend 10 minutes inspecting a frag when they receive it(the buyer) than a vendor to meticulously inspect thousands of frags every day. I think you're just being unrealistic to a point.

The beef industry has a limit on the maximum amount of rodent fecal matter per pound of beef, meaning that even on of the strictest industries, still allows imperfections to get through.