Who does live foods

tcarter1936

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Ok, I'm not trying to stir a hornets nest here but I'm stuck at a fork in the road.
1. My fallow period will be finished next week.[emoji3]
2. Plus side fish are looking great.[emoji3]
3.im having trouble figuring out what to do next.
So first off does any of the qt community ever put any live foods ie: pods,shrimp,fresh clam?
I have a mandarin and would like some other pod eaters.
I just started a large fuge and now I'm scared to stock it with pods and even scarier to me would be adding cheato,I mean I can't treat algae with copper right?
I really would appreciate some input in this matter, thanks in advance everyone.
 
Hi there! Giving macro algae a good rinse in new saltwater would take care of anything potentially getting into the tank that way. Live and whole foods are always best for our fish along with a variety. While you're waiting on your fallow period to end, this is a good time to be feeding all these very healthy options and fattening the fish up. You'll need to introduce the fish back to the display slowly anyway, so there's still time to get them used to the new foods and start on the conditioning.
 
Ok, I'm not trying to stir a hornets nest here but I'm stuck at a fork in the road.
1. My fallow period will be finished next week.[emoji3]
2. Plus side fish are looking great.[emoji3]
3.im having trouble figuring out what to do next.
So first off does any of the qt community ever put any live foods ie: pods,shrimp,fresh clam?
I have a mandarin and would like some other pod eaters.
I just started a large fuge and now I'm scared to stock it with pods and even scarier to me would be adding cheato,I mean I can't treat algae with copper right?
I really would appreciate some input in this matter, thanks in advance everyone.
I feel your pain! Trying to figure out how to maintain a perfect quarantine process is intimidating!

Most pods are not raised in tanks with fish. I would check with your pod supplier before ordering to verify that this is the case with their pods. If they are raised without fish, you should be good to go.
 
I feel your pain! Trying to figure out how to maintain a perfect quarantine process is intimidating!

Most pods are not raised in tanks with fish. I would check with your pod supplier before ordering to verify that this is the case with their pods. If they are raised without fish, you should be good to go.
Good point and not as my primary objection to the quarantine process my main issue is I am still teetering between prevention and immunity
 
Good point and not as my primary objection to the quarantine process my main issue is I am still teetering between prevention and immunity
I need to rely on auto feeders to some degree. That locks me into using at least some dry foods. That greatly lowers my odds at succeeding with immunity/ich management. :(

So instead, I'm just quarantining as best I can and hoping that when I do bring in things like coral frags that they aren't infected. I'm going to set up a frag QT for corals and inverts before I start heavily stocking my tank.
 
My goal is ultimately healthy fish,and I don't just run home with fish each week either, I like to buy juvenile fish and watch them grow. But learning how others manage to add anything with water from other systems such as pods and other live foods is my biggest confusion. I just don't trust any one person who's selling me something to tell the truth if they even know to begin with. Maybe @ humble fish could chime in.
 
That certainly is one difficulty in quarantining. Live foods such as blackworms, brine shrimp or clams could introduce a disease. Unfortunately it is live foods that will boost the fishes immunity so they don't get a disease in the first place. It's a tough call.
I feed my fish live food at every feeding.
 
Well, one advantage of blackworms is that they live in freshwater, so less likely to bring in any saltwater parasites.
 
That certainly is one difficulty in quarantining. Live foods such as blackworms, brine shrimp or clams could introduce a disease. Unfortunately it is live foods that will boost the fishes immunity so they don't get a disease in the first place. It's a tough call.
I feed my fish live food at every feeding.
Paul b. Your success in this department is what's caused my brain to short circuit so to speak. My problem I think with the whole immunity side isn't my belief in it as nature does tend to know best but the big issue we all face is the intial phase of building said immunity as most fish out there we have to choose from have already been through hell and what immunity they had is all but gone so my worry is how many fish get killed in the search for healthy enough fish to tough it out at first.
 
Well, one advantage of blackworms is that they live in freshwater, so less likely to bring in any saltwater parasites.
That is something I haven't thought of,and probably alot of sense to it.
I guess observation is always good as well to avoid the fish with visible issues from being introduced.
Another issue is this tank is hardly mature at 14 month,at least in comparison to Paul b.'s tank
 
tcarter, I agree with you that that could be a problem and is the part that many people (including me) find confusing. As I guess you know, I don't believe in quarantining for many people. It is sometimes called for but in an established system with an aquarist with a few years of experience I believe it is the worst thing for the continued health of fish. (Meredith is cringing her teeth now which is why I generally stay out of these discussions and the reason I wrote a book) In my simple mind, I feel that fish come to us with some degree of immunity. Yes, it is compromised because the fish was off it's food, captured and subjected to all sorts of stress and stuck in a small box for a couple of days so all fish will be harboring parasites and who knows what. That is true. "But" if we take such a fish and then put it in a quarantine tank that is normally a bare tank with some PVC elbows we are further stressing that fish and stress is a big suppressor of a fishes immune system. So there in lies the conundrum. Look up on this, and any other forum how many fish die in quarantine.
Now of course you can't take such a fish and throw it in a tank full of fish that have been quarantined because those quarantined fish have no functioning immune system because they most likely lost their immunity due to first of all their stress while being quarantined, but more importantly because a fishes immune system. like ours will not function for long unless it is meeting those pathogens that it was designed through millions of years to defend itself from. Immunity is a large part of a fishes biology and uses an enormous amount of calories to function, but that immune function is not something we can just turn off and ignore. A fish produces plenty of slime constantly and that slime is there to spread it's antibodies and other immune chemicals over the fishes body. It's immune system is also tied in to it's reproductive system as gut bacteria controls both systems to a large degree which is why live food is an essential part of my theory. It is also why my fish are not only immune, but all of my paired fish are spawning. That is not by accident. An immune fish is much healthier than a fish that depends on you to keep it safe. A fish was designed to live in a soup of invading organisms and it needs those invaders.
To get back to your question. I think when we start a tank we should buy the healthiest fish we can, and put them in a stable, natural, cycled tank and as soon as possible feed them the correct foods. Flakes, pellets and other dry foods will do nothing for a fishes immunity because there is no living bacteria in it. Fish need a constant supply of live bacteria in their gut to stay healthy and yes, to become immune. If my fish can be immune, anyone's can as I am not that smart. Many people say that I am running an ich maintaining tank. That may be true but the ocean that that fish evolved in was also an ich maintaining environment. I am told that if a stress event happens, my fish will die. But my tank has been ich free for 40 years and in that time there have been numerous hurricanes where my power went out for days at a time. Once my tank sitter let the water evaporate to 2/3rds of the tank volume so I couldn't read the salinity as it was off the chart. Once 24 urchins spawned at the same time turning the tank to Half and Half. Another time a very large carpet anemone got stuck in a filter inlet and died and rotted. Nothing ever happened and I still have 25 year old spawning fish.
The correct foods are fresh, frozen or the best, live foods with live bacteria. I feed clams that I buy live and freeze along with live blackworms and sometimes LRS foods which I consider a good source of nutrition and probiotics.
If we are not keeping our fish for at least their normal life span, we have failed. If our fish ever get sick, we have failed. If our paired fish are not spawning, we have failed.
Fish should "never" get sick and most (but of course not all ) fish should constantly spawn because the "normal" condition of a fish is pregnant. If it is not, it is not healthy as healthy female fish produce eggs constantly unlike dogs, cats and most of us.
This hobby is still in the dark ages as far as immunity goes but we are learning and soon our fish will never get sick and we will never have to subject a fish to something that I am sure is a frightful experience such as quarantining.
That is my theory and almost all people on here will disagree with it. I got my experience from spending time with fish underwater and not from the internet. :rolleyes:
Meredith, you can start breathing again and I am sorry for throwing a wrench into this discussion. Go about your business :D
 
If our fish ever get sick, we have failed.

If they get sick, me and Humble and the gang will be here to help! :D

Meredith, you can start breathing again and I am sorry for throwing a wrench into this discussion. Go about your business :D

You really make me smile Paul! I wish we could all recreate your success, but alas, it is not for all of us. Luckily we have you around to help teach about how you do it. Serves as a good balance to our methods. Honestly I believe there is a good balance to your excellent food regimen and our QT protocols. Who says you can't have healthy, long lived fish by running fish through QT, then feeding your disease free fish all these healthy foods you mention? A lovely compromise :)
 
tcarter, I agree with you that that could be a problem and is the part that many people (including me) find confusing. As I guess you know, I don't believe in quarantining for many people. It is sometimes called for but in an established system with an aquarist with a few years of experience I believe it is the worst thing for the continued health of fish. (Meredith is cringing her teeth now which is why I generally stay out of these discussions and the reason I wrote a book) In my simple mind, I feel that fish come to us with some degree of immunity. Yes, it is compromised because the fish was off it's food, captured and subjected to all sorts of stress and stuck in a small box for a couple of days so all fish will be harboring parasites and who knows what. That is true. "But" if we take such a fish and then put it in a quarantine tank that is normally a bare tank with some PVC elbows we are further stressing that fish and stress is a big suppressor of a fishes immune system. So there in lies the conundrum. Look up on this, and any other forum how many fish die in quarantine.
Now of course you can't take such a fish and throw it in a tank full of fish that have been quarantined because those quarantined fish have no functioning immune system because they most likely lost their immunity due to first of all their stress while being quarantined, but more importantly because a fishes immune system. like ours will not function for long unless it is meeting those pathogens that it was designed through millions of years to defend itself from. Immunity is a large part of a fishes biology and uses an enormous amount of calories to function, but that immune function is not something we can just turn off and ignore. A fish produces plenty of slime constantly and that slime is there to spread it's antibodies and other immune chemicals over the fishes body. It's immune system is also tied in to it's reproductive system as gut bacteria controls both systems to a large degree which is why live food is an essential part of my theory. It is also why my fish are not only immune, but all of my paired fish are spawning. That is not by accident. An immune fish is much healthier than a fish that depends on you to keep it safe. A fish was designed to live in a soup of invading organisms and it needs those invaders.
To get back to your question. I think when we start a tank we should buy the healthiest fish we can, and put them in a stable, natural, cycled tank and as soon as possible feed them the correct foods. Flakes, pellets and other dry foods will do nothing for a fishes immunity because there is no living bacteria in it. Fish need a constant supply of live bacteria in their gut to stay healthy and yes, to become immune. If my fish can be immune, anyone's can as I am not that smart. Many people say that I am running an ich maintaining tank. That may be true but the ocean that that fish evolved in was also an ich maintaining environment. I am told that if a stress event happens, my fish will die. But my tank has been ich free for 40 years and in that time there have been numerous hurricanes where my power went out for days at a time. Once my tank sitter let the water evaporate to 2/3rds of the tank volume so I couldn't read the salinity as it was off the chart. Once 24 urchins spawned at the same time turning the tank to Half and Half. Another time a very large carpet anemone got stuck in a filter inlet and died and rotted. Nothing ever happened and I still have 25 year old spawning fish.
The correct foods are fresh, frozen or the best, live foods with live bacteria. I feed clams that I buy live and freeze along with live blackworms and sometimes LRS foods which I consider a good source of nutrition and probiotics.
If we are not keeping our fish for at least their normal life span, we have failed. If our fish ever get sick, we have failed. If our paired fish are not spawning, we have failed.
Fish should "never" get sick and most (but of course not all ) fish should constantly spawn because the "normal" condition of a fish is pregnant. If it is not, it is not healthy as healthy female fish produce eggs constantly unlike dogs, cats and most of us.
This hobby is still in the dark ages as far as immunity goes but we are learning and soon our fish will never get sick and we will never have to subject a fish to something that I am sure is a frightful experience such as quarantining.
That is my theory and almost all people on here will disagree with it. I got my experience from spending time with fish underwater and not from the internet. :rolleyes:
Meredith, you can start breathing again and I am sorry for throwing a wrench into this discussion. Go about your business :D

So tell me Paul B what your credentials are to spout such stupidity??? I am wondering, DVM? Microbiologist? Marine biologist? Please do tell.
 
So tell me Paul B what your credentials are to spout such stupidity??? I am wondering, DVM? Microbiologist? Marine biologist? Please do tell.

Now, now. Let's be nice. Paul has great ideas about what's healthy to feed your fish and fish that are very old and very healthy to show just how well his food options work. We don't agree on a lot of these things, but the foods he recommends are absolutely good for your fish.
 
So tell me Paul B what your credentials are to spout such stupidity??? I am wondering, DVM? Microbiologist? Marine biologist? Please do tell.
No offense but I do believe that the Hornets nest has been poked, I'm mearly.asking these questions to provoke the answers to my numerous questions,do I assume all will be correct well of course not,I do however respect Paul's and merideths opions as well as many others on this site. It's always up to the one who seeks advice to ultimately choose the route to take right wrong or otherwise.further more I do believe that both side raise extremely valid points. Hence my apprehension to embrace one way of thinking and doing.
I'm not sold either way but nature has awsome ways of handling things likewise we as humans face a heck of a challenge trying to create nature in a box. And that show alot credit toward the qt/treatment side of things.
I will choose a route just undecided an no need to rush. I've been in the hobby for 5 years and every day I'm learning more which is what I love about this hobby.
 
I need to rely on auto feeders to some degree. That locks me into using at least some dry foods. That greatly lowers my odds at succeeding with immunity/ich management. :(

So instead, I'm just quarantining as best I can and hoping that when I do bring in things like coral frags that they aren't infected. I'm going to set up a frag QT for corals and inverts before I start heavily stocking my tank.


My system is a combo system. I am a firefighter so I too have to rely on an auto feeder for some of my feedings. I work 2 days on and 4 days off. When I get up and go to work I turn the auto feeder on. For 2 days the tank gets pellet food. The morning I get off I turn off the feeder. I start a batch of brine shrimp. That evening I feed larrys reef frenzy and live blackworms and 1/4 sheet of nori. Next day lrf and live macroalgae. Nxt day lrf and brine shrimp and 1/4 sheet nori. Last day lrf and live blackworms and live macro algae. Every 2 months I stock tank with a generous amount of pods to keep the pod population up. In my qt id do pretty much the same thing except for the nori (depending on the fish). I also usually inconvienence my wife for that month and make her give lrf to the qt while I am at work so no pellets in the qt. This system has worked well for me, fish are all fat happy and my 1 pair breed all the time. Never had a disease outbreak.
 
All good points, leave Paul B alone he has been reefing longer than the majority of us have been alive. But to the point about not QT and having success... Ich is easily hidden so well in time by most fish you may have it and not know it for a long time. The only ones I see that are just not going to hide it for any length of time are acanthurus tangs. @Paul B I would be very impressed if you had an acanthurus tang in your mix. Outside of that I would think a steady healthy diet would be more than enough to keep almost any reef fish looking good and healthy and spawning even with ich in the system (without ever showing signs). Velvet or brook might be another story.
 
All good points, leave Paul B alone he has been reefing longer than the majority of us have been alive. But to the point about not QT and having success... Ich is easily hidden so well in time by most fish you may have it and not know it for a long time. The only ones I see that are just not going to hide it for any length of time are acanthurus tangs. @Paul B I would be very impressed if you had an acanthurus tang in your mix. Outside of that I would think a steady healthy diet would be more than enough to keep almost any reef fish looking good and healthy and spawning even with ich in the system (without ever showing signs). Velvet or brook might be another story.
I think it is important to remember that ich, velvet, and brook are all found on reefs. Healthy fish are exposed to these in the natural environment all the time and yet they survive. I have confidence that @Paul B could easily keep a acanthurus tang just like he keeps his other fish. If they couldn't survive being exposed to ich they would have gone extinct long ago. It is unrealistic that the majority of reef keepers can mimic the natural reef environment and maintain the level of health that Paul B does. That is why for us proper quarantine procedures are so important for those of us unwilling or unable to mimic the health of a natural reef.
 
I think it is important to remember that ich, velvet, and brook are all found on reefs. Healthy fish are exposed to these in the natural environment all the time and yet they survive. I have confidence that @Paul B could easily keep a acanthurus tang just like he keeps his other fish. If they couldn't survive being exposed to ich they would have gone extinct long ago. It is unrealistic that the majority of reef keepers can mimic the natural reef environment and maintain the level of health that Paul B does. That is why for us proper quarantine procedures are so important for those of us unwilling or unable to mimic the health of a natural reef.
That's about where my thinking is, I'm more interested in keeping fat happy healthy fish fed with the best foods and that way if something gets past me into my system then the fish hopefully can handle it , for the time being I'm almost done with fallow but about to start ttm for my flame hawk and mandarin. But my tomini I'm undecided. Never done cp and my last run with copper killed my kole tang and starry blenny.
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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