Who does live foods

[4FordFamily]

Paul got me on to blackworms and my fish love them and look healthier than ever

 

[tcarter1936]

I'm definitely going to be ordering some of those as I do believe it would be part of a healthy food regimen my question to you is are you doing a blackworms holding facilities such as Paul's or just ordering them and keeping them in a refrigerator

 

[Paul B]

Meredith. Of course whatever system you run it will always be best to feed the fish the best thing you can but you really can't mix the two systems. A quarantined tank with absolutely no parasites will have no way to impart parasite immunity to fish, and they will always be susceptible. A tank like mine or any non quarantined tank where the fish remain immune from parasites will need a thriving population of parasites living in it to keep up the fishes immunity. That is also the reason we get flu, measles and tetanus shots periodically, To maintain our immunity. I am sure there are parasites in my tank and I want them there. They will never get to problem numbers due to the immunity of the fish.

Now to my friend Jen.
Jenreefer. It is interesting that you came to this thread and the first and only thing you posted was about how stupid I am. I see with your vast number of posts, five exactly, two of them you are calling me stupid, and the other three are about a contest. To answer your questions, no I am not an Immunologist, I am an electrician. A very good electrician. But not an Immunologist, microbiologist or any other ologist. So if you disagree with anything I posted you are disagreeing with the wrong person because as an electrician I would not be capable of coming up with that stuff about fish immunobiology. That was all from immunologists, ichthyologists, and food fish researchers so if you have a problem with their theory's, you need to complain to them. If you took the time to do a little research as to where I got this information from you would have found that out. I have written many threads on the subject and in those threads I listed, quoted and linked to my sources. You can see the thread here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/

As to my credentials about how I can spout such stupidity, that came from my 60 years of constant fish keeping, diving, collecting and spawning. In my life I have never lived without a fish tank and I started my reef tank the week saltwater fish were imported into the United States. I have spawned many types of fish and keep what are known as hard to keep fish, I have two aquarium related patents and published a book.
In my stupidity I know how to read so I read everything I can in scientific literature about fish immunity. Then I take those parts that I feel would benefit our hobby and along with my experience I post it on forums in the hope I can help someone. In your Veterinarian practice how many fish patients do you treat? How many years did your Vet Professor keep a salt water tank? Jen, if you know someone who has been successful in this hobby longer than I have, why are you reading a post from such a stupid person?
If you want to know any more about my stupidity, you can Google my name. You will find plenty of information. Thank you for posting Paul Baldassano.

 

[Paul B]

Triggreef, I do not have a acanthurus tang. I don't even like tangs as I find them boring but for most of the years I have had my tank I have kept a Hippo tang because I think they just are the nicest looking. I have kept just about every type of tang but most of them get to big for my 100 gallon tank. I had a moorish Idol for five years and that even got to big. My copperband is also pushing the limits on size but I have no problems keeping tangs.

 

[jenreefer]

To be fair,, I agree with the whole feed your fish well platform, so in total agreement with Paul B there. That being said, I believe that when we put fish in these tiny little boxes, we as their captors have to do everything in our power to make their lives as great as possible. I have not been keeping reefs as long as Paul B, I suspect, but have almost 20 years under my belt. In addition, and for full disclosure, I am a Veterinarian.

My frustration was probably misplaced. I just object to any one person, even me presenting myself as an expert on a board where experts are few and far in between. I am happy for Paul B if he can keep his fish healthy with diet alone, but for the vast majority of hobbyists, who are reading these forums in a desperate attempt to become successful, each and every post can lead to either success or failure, depending on the moment. So my hope is that we all are careful in our posts to make sure that we are guiding the majority towards success. Not everyone reads to obsession, and not everyone wants to quarantine their fish or corals and will look for someone to tell them that they do not have to.

My hope is that with the ease of quarantine and the large safety factor that comes with doing it, that more and more will choose to give their fish a better chance at long term survival that a short 1-2 months can give. The Tank to tank transfer method can be completed in a mere 2 weeks and can keep someone from losing an entire tank of fish.

Jen

 

[tcarter1936]

To be fair,, I agree with the whole feed your fish well platform, so in total agreement with Paul B there. That being said, I believe that when we put fish in these tiny little boxes, we as their captors have to do everything in our power to make their lives as great as possible. I have not been keeping reefs as long as Paul B, I suspect, but have almost 20 years under my belt. In addition, and for full disclosure, I am a Veterinarian.

My frustration was probably misplaced. I just object to any one person, even me presenting myself as an expert on a board where experts are few and far in between. I am happy for Paul B if he can keep his fish healthy with diet alone, but for the vast majority of hobbyists, who are reading these forums in a desperate attempt to become successful, each and every post can lead to either success or failure, depending on the moment. So my hope is that we all are careful in our posts to make sure that we are guiding the majority towards success. Not everyone reads to obsession, and not everyone wants to quarantine their fish or corals and will look for someone to tell them that they do not have to.

My hope is that with the ease of quarantine and the large safety factor that comes with doing it, that more and more will choose to give their fish a better chance at long term survival that a short 1-2 months can give. The Tank to tank transfer method can be completed in a mere 2 weeks and can keep someone from losing an entire tank of fish.

Jen

Hello, and while I appreciate your concern, my main intent and purpose of my post wasn't to see if quarantine was a good choice nor was I looking for someone to talk me out of it. I am in fact setting up a coral qt as we speak.
Now I'm well aware of strong opinions on that matter, I did say I was not trying to stir the Hornets nest. My focus is strickly on foods. And how they may or may not introduce pathogens and parasites.
My conflict is I refuse to feed pellets or flake out of fear I may infect my fish.
I do strongly agree with Paul b and his success but know that in a young tank velvet and ich can wipe things out in short order.
I want fish that are healthy and strong in case my efforts to prevent introduction fail.

 

[Paul B]

Jenreefer. That was a nice post. I actually like it when people disagree with me as I am not the God of fish as I mention in most of my posts. And like I also usually say, these are just "my opinions" and could be wrong.
Noobs are a different category, (Also said) so their tanks and general fishy methods will be different because it will be hard for them to be able to recognize a healthy fish from a sick one. "we" can do that, but we have been doing this for a while.
I am glad we have a Veterinarian here who would have some incite on biology.
I didn't really come about this bacteria in the food thing all by myself. That's not an electrician's field of expertise so I have to research it. I did however surmise it many years go when I started my tank.
I told this story many times but in 1971 when I bought my first seven blue devils I fed them flakes and fresh water Tetramin as that was the only foods available then. There was also dried ants in a can.
After a while I started to give those blue devils live worms and in 7 weeks one of the fish developed blue fins and tail while the remaining 6 kept their clear tail. The more colorful one was a male and started spawning with the rest of those fish. Remember this was in 1971 when most people didn't know what a salt water fish was unless it was in a can labeled "Dolphin Safe".
The worms were the key but I didn't understand why. It took many years and much researching to figure out that besides the nutrition in the worms, the bacteria in their gut imparted some sort of immunity because a few years later I stopped quarantining. Now maybe I was just lucky because all fish in those days died almost immediately from parasites and we had to constantly keep copper in the tank.
But I learned many years later that (in a fish anyway) spawning behavior and immunity were tied together. Now just recently over the last two or three years research seems to be agreeing with that.
Again, I could be wrong and many times I am so this is just "my theory" but it is all based on scientific research.
I am sure Jen can shed more light on this or tell me where I am going wrong.

Here is that fish over his nest of eggs in that goose barnacle shell circa 1972. I like to try to put pictures next to my theories so people don't think I got this from the internet.

 

[chicago]

Paul. I understand your post and thoughts. I use to be of the opinion that there is always some form of ick lurking in the tank.. or in the fish tissue or hiding in the gravel waiting for an opportunity time.. stressed tank parameters, stressed fish ect. I had many tanks for many years with ick that would come and go. For those who have some working knowledge of ick, we notice it in the beginning and seem to handle that situation better. I strongly believe in QT. It gives the fish time to adjust, fatten up and observe.. I even after QT use a acrylic box suctioned cup inside the DT where the new fish lives for a week before releasing him into the tank. Anyone starting off or new to this hobby should be assisted and instructed to QT the Fish. Those that do not tend to come and go to this hobby with fraustration because of ick and velvet ect.

 

[chicago]

ok.. on another note in the post.. Why do we think pellets infect the fish? Tcarter?

on fresh food.. I was informed over the years.. if your buying fresh shrimp, squid ect.. make sure to freeze and that will kill all chance of disease introduction into the tank.. yes?

 

[Chrisfish]

I feed all of my fish live black worms, even my mandarin comes right up to the turkey baster for her share. They are all fat and happy. In addition I have tons of pods in my tank and refugium for my mandarin and occasionlly feed them LRS. My fish ignore flake and pellet food.

 

[Brew12]

My hope is that with the ease of quarantine and the large safety factor that comes with doing it, that more and more will choose to give their fish a better chance at long term survival that a short 1-2 months can give. The Tank to tank transfer method can be completed in a mere 2 weeks and can keep someone from losing an entire tank of fish.

I only wish this was easy. I am new to the hobby, right around 2 months into my first tank. Quarantining fish is the easy part. I keep 2 QT tanks using TTM which isn't a problem. I hit a pause because my last batch of fish looked to have velvet so I started copper.
Quarantining fish is the easy part. Ich can come in on snail or crab shells. It can come in on coral frags. I don't have a way to QT either of those yet. If someone really wanted to be safe, they would need to have their coral plugs in a QT, with no fish in it, for at least 76 days without adding anything to the frag tank before your coral can go into a DT. There is nothing easy about having someone new to the hobby set up 2 full reef ready systems along with 2 hospital/QT tanks just to get their foot in the door to do 100% quarantine.
I'm doing my best to QT everything except coral plugs. I really need more CuC but am holding off for now. Maybe for people who have been doing this for years, and have a collection of old equipment from upgrades,doing 100% quarantine is easy. I can assure you that for someone new to the hobby that it is not.

 

[TheEngineer]

I started feeding my fish live black worms a little over a week ago to get some new fish I got in eating. They were hesitant at first, but now they eat them with gusto. These fish are in QT as two developed velvet. They have all colored up wonderfully in QT and will be getting out of copper and into observation at the end of the week.

I won't weigh in on the QT/immunity/etc. conversation because it isn't my space and this is my first time actually QT'ing fish. One comment though is that I can see a well fed fish being more capable of being able to fend off disease. Same goes for us, eat well and you are healthier. @Paul B said black worms do the trick for him, so I went out and got some.

 

[jenreefer]

I only wish this was easy. I am new to the hobby, right around 2 months into my first tank. Quarantining fish is the easy part. I keep 2 QT tanks using TTM which isn't a problem. I hit a pause because my last batch of fish looked to have velvet so I started copper.
Quarantining fish is the easy part. Ich can come in on snail or crab shells. It can come in on coral frags. I don't have a way to QT either of those yet. If someone really wanted to be safe, they would need to have their coral plugs in a QT, with no fish in it, for at least 76 days without adding anything to the frag tank before your coral can go into a DT. There is nothing easy about having someone new to the hobby set up 2 full reef ready systems along with 2 hospital/QT tanks just to get their foot in the door to do 100% quarantine.
I'm doing my best to QT everything except coral plugs. I really need more CuC but am holding off for now. Maybe for people who have been doing this for years, and have a collection of old equipment from upgrades,doing 100% quarantine is easy. I can assure you that for someone new to the hobby that it is not.

As this thread had gotten way off the OP thoughts, I will not spend a ton of time here talking about QT. I will start a new thread and maybe Paul B and I can discuss the importance of feeding and QT in greater depth. (not that it has not been done before).

 

[Paul B]

I realize that people mis understand me. I am not trying to get anyone to give up quarantining. If that is what you think is best, do that. Many people successfully run their tank like that. I am just trying to explain another way. Not that anyone has to follow it. There are two ways to run a tank and I started a thread about it here so I don't go over it again. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/two-methodoligies-to-keep-a-reef-tank.226995/

Here is another thread on how food relates to health. Jen, you should look at them to see where and if I screwed up. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-does-food-equate-to-health.233275/

Here is something I did not write about our gut bacteria and where I got some information from http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/290747.php

Jen, when you start that new thread, let me know.

 

[Brew12]

I realize that people mis understand me. I am not trying to get anyone to give up quarantining. If that is what you think is best, do that. Many people successfully run their tank like that. I am just trying to explain another way. Not that anyone has to follow it. There are two ways to run a tank and I started a thread about it here so I don't go over it again. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/two-methodoligies-to-keep-a-reef-tank.226995/

Here is another thread on how food relates to health. Jen, you should look at them to see where and if I screwed up. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-does-food-equate-to-health.233275/

Here is something I did not write about our gut bacteria and where I got some information from http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/290747.php

Jen, when you start that new thread, let me know.

She already started it, it is located here.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/quarantines-and-new-tank-thoughts.271055/

I'm not sure that the two ways are necessarily independent of each other. I guess I am trying to blend the two by quarantining as much as practical, and then trying to keep them as healthy as possible through good husbandry and feeding in case something gets through.

Not sure why it needs to be an either/or.

 

[Paul B]

In my opinion it needs to be "either or" because if you are quarantining and keeping parasites as well as other pathogens away from fish. They will never become immune from those things so you will always have to quarantine. Of course if you quarantine, it will be much better to feed the fish as well as you can, but their immunity will not extend to things the fish is not exposed to on a regular basis.

 

[Brew12]

In my opinion it needs to be "either or" because if you are quarantining and keeping parasites as well as other pathogens away from fish. They will never become immune from those things so you will always have to quarantine. Of course if you quarantine, it will be much better to feed the fish as well as you can, but their immunity will not extend to things the fish is not exposed to on a regular basis.

Good point. Eating at McDonald's less often probably wouldn't have helped the Inca's and Aztec's avoid smallpox when the Spaniards dropped in for a visit.

 

[jenreefer]

On a natural reef, fish are exposed to many parasites and diseases. The difference between our tiny little boxes and a natural reef are zillions of gallons of water constantly being moved and exchanged. So on a reef, the exposure rate is very small. Immunology teaches us that small continuous exposure leads to immunity in the vast majority with competent immune systems (vaccinations, as an example). So this is a good thing, right? So what happens in our tiny boxes when a parasite multiplies? It is not washes away by the currents, so the exposure rate of our fish is much higher than on a natural reef. Some fish will become "immune" while others will be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of parasites. We can mitigate this with large water changes on a regular basis, UV sterilization, and some other forms of destroying some of the organisms. And yes, of course, keep your fish as healthy as possible. This means feed, feed, feed. Each hobbyist will have to decide what level of risk they are willing to take with each new fish. For some, spending the time and money on feeding right and export nutrient (very important with heavy feeding) will be great. For others, starving the system is what has been recommended. (not my preference) and for others, setting up a system of quarantine and observation of each new addition to make sure they are at their best before being added to the tank, is preferred. I personally try to combine quarantine (for illness, feeding, and getting to know my new fish) and optimal feeding with great nutrient export from my system. This in no way guarantees that my system will remain parasite and pathogen free, no system is perfect, but hopefully the level of exposure will remain low and fish will continue to stay at optimal health throughout any tank issues that surely will arise.

 

[jenreefer]

I realize that people mis understand me. I am not trying to get anyone to give up quarantining. If that is what you think is best, do that. Many people successfully run their tank like that. I am just trying to explain another way. Not that anyone has to follow it. There are two ways to run a tank and I started a thread about it here so I don't go over it again. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/two-methodoligies-to-keep-a-reef-tank.226995/

Here is another thread on how food relates to health. Jen, you should look at them to see where and if I screwed up. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-does-food-equate-to-health.233275/

Here is something I did not write about our gut bacteria and where I got some information from http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/290747.php

Jen, when you start that new thread, let me know.

Thanks for the links, very informative. where do you buy your blackworms? I am sure you have posted before, but did not see. Thanks

 

[Paul B]

Good point. Eating at McDonald's less often probably wouldn't have helped the Inca's and Aztec's avoid smallpox when the Spaniards dropped in for a visit.

That is true, but eating less at McDonalds would allow the Inca's to run away from the Spaniards faster. Then, when the Inca watched the Spaniards, who were now fat from all those Happy Meals, trying to run away with all that heavy gold, the Inca could have stood behind trees and tripped the Spaniards as they came by. If that were to happen, we may all be speaking Incaneeze now.

Jen, I actually agree with your post.
I do also have a "theory" as to how fish can cope with the extra heavy parasite load in a smaller tank than the ocean. I only "think" this because of my fishes seeming immunity.
I "think" in a tank, fish would develop a stronger immunity from parasites due to the large number of parasites they may be exposed to as opposed to being in the ocean. That is one theory. I also have another "theory". I have lots of theories.
In a tank, especially an older tank where the fish have some sort of immunity, I feel the parasites will never get to plague proportions because the immunity on a fish, especially on their slime won't allow large numbers of parasites to breed, thus lessening the parasite load in a tank.
In my tank for instance where I "believe" the fish are immune. When I add a new fish, rarely I will see a couple of parasites for a couple of days. Then the fish will be free of any spots for the remainder of it's life until it dies of (usually) old age. I would assume, if there was a huge parasite load in my tank any new fish would immediately succumb to the parasites. But that is never the case.
3 weeks ago I added an orange spotted file fish, which was almost dead when I got it. 2 months ago I added a clingfish. A year ago I added 3 shrimpfish. Two of the shrimpfish were fine, the third shrimp fish died in a day and was covered in parasites. I left him in the tank for the bristleworms to eat. I have not seen any new parasites and I have about 25 fish in my tank.
I add fish all the time, sometimes I get them for free because the store knows they dill die soon because either they are covered in parasites, not eating or they just can't sell them. I recently got a copperband like that for $5.00.
I also add mud from here a few times a year just for the bacteria, and presumably the parasites, but that is a guess if any parasites are in there,
OK forget the pictures for now as Photobucket is down for maintenance so I can't add pictures. Make believe there is a picture of mud here in a tide pool in the Long Island Sound covered in snails and mussels.