Why are so many frags so small?

[PaulKreider]

I love my green slimer!!!!!!! >:O

 

[mainereefer]

the way I see it if you think ppl are are paying to much for a certain coral buy it grow it and sell it cheap

 

[NanaReefer]

Definition of Hobby:
An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.

Definition of Vendor:
One that sells or vends.

Maybe if we all looked more to our fellow Hobbyist and less to the vendor we could then control some of these outrageous prices.

Just this past weekend I took my 50+ head of Neon CandyCane (3yrs grow out) to our clubs very first frag swap. We used it as part of a Fragging Demonstration and all you had to do to get a FREE frag was to put your name on a list. Also donated was a very nice Favia rock and Leather coral. We gave away 11 CC frags of 3+ heads each, 9 Favia frags and 7 leather frags. Talk about feeling good!? Guess what I'm saying is we need to take back the pleasure part of the hobby and Pay-A-Little-More-Forward!

Before

After

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[turbo21]

Not trying to down you at all so please dont take it that way. From your list, the corals that you took to the frag workshop are all common pieces that can be found any where for cheap. which is agreat way to give back and help others get started. and i try to do the same thing in my area.

but you wont find anyone offering up rastas or my clementines or rainbow chalices for a fragging demonstration. why? because most of the time the more colorful corals seem to be the slowest growers and you cant find them in most lfs
with every hobby, you have some that need to take it to the next level.
Can you have a beautiful reef tank without one named coral? of course

but to have the crazy colored stuff, you are gonna have to put out some cash.

look at it another way. cellphones

having the newest latest greatest phone has become a hobby for some. do you really need an iphone? or will an old school bar phone get by. it will get you through but not without all the bells and whistles. if you want the bells and whistles you are gonna pay for it. but wait a few years and you can get the older phone models for dirt cheap. just like coral. you want it first and your gonna pay.

rastas used to go for crazy amounts of money per polyp and now everyone seems to have them. so if you want the named stuff and can wait do it because the price will come down

bob

Definition of Hobby:
An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.

Definition of Vendor:
One that sells or vends.

Maybe if we all looked more to our fellow Hobbyist and less to the vendor we could then control some of these outrageous prices.

Just this past weekend I took my 50+ head of Neon CandyCane (3yrs grow out) to our clubs very first frag swap. We used it as part of a Fragging Demonstration and all you had to do to get a FREE frag was to put your name on a list. Also donated was a very nice Favia rock and Leather coral. We gave away 11 CC frags of 3+ heads each, 9 Favia frags and 7 leather frags. Talk about feeling good!? Guess what I'm saying is we need to take back the pleasure part of the hobby and Pay-A-Little-More-Forward!

Before

After

Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

 

[Dave3112]

The game is rigged. I know this from experience. I set up a business a while back. Got tax ID numbers and was able to buy from wholesalers. I would get the stock lists and call them to ask about specific types of corals. I was told that they only release those type of corals after the other, better known vendors, have a chance to cherry pick them. Even if you go to the wholesale shop they reserve things back for their buddies, I mean preferred vendors. The only way to get the same chance as the wholesaler is to import the corals yourself. That is a whole other bag of tricks. Because even if you import the exact same coral from the exact same mother colony, because you don't put LE or whatever on your frag its not the "real" coral.


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[shellynjason]

Just went to my first Frag Swap and it was incredible how tiny the frags were and what the vendors were charging for them. I got my biggest and nicest frags from other club members in my state doing 'pre-orders' before the swap. Never ordered online yet but buying from other hobbists seems to be the way to go.

 

[FaviaFreak]

a lot of it starts directly at the source, you think these suppliers don't see what is popular in the hobby and charge accordingly to their wholesalers? it's a trickle down effect, it all rolls down hill boys.

as for the rainbow chalices and other ultra pieces, if you guys actually saw what the wholesale cost for some of these pieces are and how hard they are to obtain you would probably understand a bit better

 

[slojmn]

Years back..maybe 7-10 years ago there were not as many importers, not as many points at the local source where the divers are getting these goods and we certainly didn't have access to Aussie stuff. The coral was coming in much cheaper to the importers and wholesalers. Prices were lower in general but people were making some good $$ at the end to us hobbyists. Then more and more people started jumping into the pond to become vendors/sellers/etc. We have so many vendors now it is crazy. In 2000 there were only a few vendors with SPS and all the goodies. Now there are soooo many more. As Kevin said prices started to rise at the point where the corals are collected. The big $$ the local sellers here were making started to look really good on up the chain so they started selling the colonies for more and more as the years have gone by. The vendors now are not getting big chalice colonies for $20 like they use to, especially the rainbows and multicolored pieces. I think the $$ signs trickled back up the chain in the early 2000's to mid 2000's and now the importers and others are demanding high dollars to the wholesalers for colonies...at least I think this is probably the case, I am just guessing. I use to see vendor lists in the early 2000's and stuff was super cheap!!! The vendors of the that time started cutting up things like chalices and charging $50-$100 per eye, Steve Tyree was really instrumental in the naming game and finding unique pieces, prices started to rise for the "rare" stuff and now this is where we are. All prices come down...if one is patient and the piece becomes a bit more common you can find it for cheaper than a vendor. Frankly, some vendors are well worth the high price tag on stuff as it is healthy and beautiful, not every piece is worth it, just what you feel is worth it. Being a pretty avid collector I understand the economics of the trade for the most part, sometimes I shake my head in amazement at what people are trying to sell and other times I am on computer buying it. I figure, to each his own.

I really encourage people to trade locally, join your local clubs, go to frag swaps, and support those vendors that you feel will do you right. I have my favorite vendors and they are long standing folks that have been around for quite a while. I trust them and feel good about supporting their business, otherwise I buy from fellow hobbyists.

 

[FaviaFreak]

Years back..maybe 7-10 years ago there were not as many importers, not as many points at the local source where the divers are getting these goods and we certainly didn't have access to Aussie stuff. The coral was coming in much cheaper to the importers and wholesalers. Prices were lower in general but people were making some good $$ at the end to us hobbyists. Then more and more people started jumping into the pond to become vendors/sellers/etc. We have so many vendors now it is crazy. In 2000 there were only a few vendors with SPS and all the goodies. Now there are soooo many more. As Kevin said prices started to rise at the point where the corals are collected. The big $$ the local sellers here were making started to look really good on up the chain so they started selling the colonies for more and more as the years have gone by. The vendors now are not getting big chalice colonies for $20 like they use to, especially the rainbows and multicolored pieces. I think the $$ signs trickled back up the chain in the early 2000's to mid 2000's and now the importers and others are demanding high dollars to the wholesalers for colonies...at least I think this is probably the case, I am just guessing. I use to see vendor lists in the early 2000's and stuff was super cheap!!! The vendors of the that time started cutting up things like chalices and charging $50-$100 per eye, Steve Tyree was really instrumental in the naming game and finding unique pieces, prices started to rise for the "rare" stuff and now this is where we are. All prices come down...if one is patient and the piece becomes a bit more common you can find it for cheaper than a vendor. Frankly, some vendors are well worth the high price tag on stuff as it is healthy and beautiful, not every piece is worth it, just what you feel is worth it. Being a pretty avid collector I understand the economics of the trade for the most part, sometimes I shake my head in amazement at what people are trying to sell and other times I am on computer buying it. I figure, to each his own.

I really encourage people to trade locally, join your local clubs, go to frag swaps, and support those vendors that you feel will do you right. I have my favorite vendors and they are long standing folks that have been around for quite a while. I trust them and feel good about supporting their business, otherwise I buy from fellow hobbyists.

very well stated Alicia, I think you hit the nail right on the head

hope all is good btw?

 

[Liquid360]

Why are long pants long?

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Everyone please keep in mind that there are many quality vendors who have very good practices of pricing and frag sizes among many other things. To lump all vendors into the "booger" sized frags pile would be an injustice for to many. Also you need to keep inn mind that even a quality vendor who produces good sized frags may only have a very very small frag of a certain highly sought after coral and if the demand is there then why not sell it. I would. At any rate just keep an open mind that not everyone is out ready to take you to the cleaners! HA!

 

[Liquid360]

Great point Cup Half Full guy!!

Everyone please keep in mind that there are many quality vendors who have very good practices of pricing and frag sizes among many other things. To lump all vendors into the "booger" sized frags pile would be an injustice for to many. Also you need to keep inn mind that even a quality vendor who produces good sized frags may only have a very very small frag of a certain highly sought after coral and if the demand is there then why not sell it. I would. At any rate just keep an open mind that not everyone is out ready to take you to the cleaners! HA!

 

[cthedaytrader]

It really is as simple as supply and demand. When the supply is high and the demand is low the cost goes down, when the piece is rare and the demand is high the prices go up.

I personally have always liked buying "named" or "Le" pieces because they were generally in captivity longer and were generally more hardy and in most cases had proven color, growth under aquarium conditons. But, now you have to be a bit more careful with that, as some vendors it seems get a colony keep it a few weeks or less frag it up and thats it. While, other venders hold the coral grow it out let the frags heal and see how the corals holds up in captivity. I personally dont mind paying a bit more if I know thats the case, becausse then hopefully I am payng for a healthy colorful coral.

However, one thing I have noticed in the past few years, is you rarely see full grown out colonies of the high end rare corals, and when you do they dont always look like the orginal pictures. While I know tanks differ, I think the issue also has to be linked with corals being named and chopped without any time in captivity.

 

[Liquid360]

I agree! Really nice high end stuff is hard to find!! I just picked up this chalice that I was shocked to find all grown out! Ive been showing it off a lot just because they are so difficult to find. Everything are frags. There are a few online ships that have used this niche wisely, specializing in high end pieces. $75 for a frag or a couple hundred for a piece.

 

[Chameleon]

I say go to swap and join a local reef club.
The MTRC swap is always amazing. Even well known venders often have prices 50-75% off what you would pay online on their websites.
Also I have given away and received more frags to and from people in the local reef club than I can count. Even if we aren't giving the corals away in the club when we pay for them its almost always $20 or less for even the highest end corals. I will often frag a piece of just about anything out of my tank for $10 unless its not yet at fraggable size. There are exceptions of course for slower growing corals and ones that I don't like to frag, but you get the idea...local clubs are great. They aren't in it for the money, but for the enjoyment. Sharing this with others is another way we enjoy the hobby

 

[afamousjohnson]

Its easy to not think outside the box on this one. Despite the fact that I see many corals going for way to much$ and feel the same as many of you. That makes us call a vendor greedy. Now on the other hand we are expecting them to now give us more coral for less $-doesnt that turn the table and make you the hobbiest greedy. Guess you can look at it both ways huh. I myself do not need an entire colony to start with and am happy to put in a small frag to grow from. Patience is key in this example. Get to know your local feeders and you will bypass high pricing in a good 75% of cases. Of course everyone wants a killer deal.
I sell off CL to other local hobbiests at incredible prices and even than am haggled on the price to the point I have to say buy or walk. What's that saying. I myself will not purchase at the outragous prices and wait things out and in the end usually aquire the piece without hurting my pocket. Just the other day had someone stop by off CL to purchase. Had multiple large mini colonies of all types of birdsnest and digis for 20$ a piece. The buyer told me they didn't want to buy those pieces even at the great price because they were so common and then went to point at the 1" frag of red dragon I had on the rack and offered me 10$ for it. Should I rip myself off in this case so that hthey felt like they got a deal they were comfortable with. No. Now if they were a club member I would have done it for 30$ and if they were a club member that I know am aquinted with and have delt with before...well if I didn't sell it to them for 10$ I would've given it to them.

 

[ehocean]

Everyone please keep in mind that there are many quality vendors who have very good practices of pricing and frag sizes among many other things. To lump all vendors into the "booger" sized frags pile would be an injustice for to many. Also you need to keep inn mind that even a quality vendor who produces good sized frags may only have a very very small frag of a certain highly sought after coral and if the demand is there then why not sell it. I would. At any rate just keep an open mind that not everyone is out ready to take you to the cleaners! HA!

That's a very good point. While I prefer to buy my corals from our local reef club, there are some online vendors that I absolutely trust. We have a huge local reef club in San Diego as well as the Southern California area. However, there are certain frags that I cannot find easily locally.

I hate to put names here, but one that I like to point out that is exceptional is Rocky Mountain Frags. I collect SPS frags, and Jared seems to have many of the SPS that I have been looking for. He takes the time to properly heal the frags and when I received them, they are healthy and bigger that even ones I get through other reefers. The pictures are not doctored in anyway so I get exactly what is expected.

...and no I do not know Jared personally. I am just a happy customer from him.

 

[Betroc2]

Yes, I agree with you Rikerbear. There should be a standard sizing. Even if it's a rare piece. I also think all pictures taken should state what kind of lighting is used in the picture. Most have so much blue you don't know what the piece looks like in normal reef daylight. Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

[Liquid360]

And then there'd need to be a governing association to oversee coral standards thereby creating a bureaucracy. There would then have to be consequences for violators of coral standards and regulations which would then need an enforcement agency. To pay for all this oversight there'd need to be a coral tax. Inevitably they'd abuse there power creating the need for a second agency to oversee said agency.... or we could just say "buyer beware" and only buy from recommended sites/stores.

Yes, I agree with you Rikerbear. There should be a standard sizing. Even if it's a rare piece. I also think all pictures taken should state what kind of lighting is used in the picture. Most have so much blue you don't know what the piece looks like in normal reef daylight. Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

[90greefman]

I definetly agree to a degree and this is what i have done to enjoy this hobby even more than ever:
1. Dont get caught up in the hype with names and all. Buy what you like.
2. Be patient as deals eventually come around.
3. I personally enjoy small frags especially when they are priced right: ie thecoralfarmer on ebay had some smoking hot stuff last night, the majority went for $5-10, really cant beat that and you get to watch them grow out.
4. Find a local reef club to do trades within

On the other side of the equation if everything was larger frags and cheap i would imagine more reefs would be depleted and most vendors would go out of business. Just basic supply and demand.

You should join local reef clubs and look out for frag swaps and coral shows. Deals are always to be had.

I just don't understand why the frags have to be so small. You pay a lot of money for such a small piece. Why? Maybe if everyone stopped paying so much the prices would come down. Then more of us can enjoy a better veriety too. The economy is so bad right now it's hard for most of us to pay these large prices. I know the work it takes to care for coral, but it just seems like something could be done. Anyone else feel this way?:squigglemouth: