Why are some people anti-waterchanges?

[Solo McReefer]

Then is there an actual concern with DOC or just another item than can be easily solved?

If you eat a big dinner and then go to the bathroom

Has the problem of eating been easily solved?

Has the actual concern for eating gone away?

 

[GARRIGA]

DOC is actually pretty complicated but there are means to managing it.

EDIT: just posting this link for further info, I'm not sure if i believe his conclusions 100% yet

DOC is The Most Important Parameter For A Healthy Reef Tank: Here’s a New Method to Manage It | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

In this article, I will provide an overview of my take on the current zeitgeist of reefing and explain why the entire industry is ignoring a critical aspect of coral care. I will explain what issues…

reefbuilders.com

Read that article and why I mentioned sponges as it appears that’s the only item that can completely resolve DOC in a no water change environment.

I’m going to experiment with AOP targeting the equivalent of periodic water changes before adding sponges to see if that works. Assuming those tests are accurate then once I establish they exist then I can confirm they’ve been removed.

Forgot skimmers and GAC can be used since I’m not running one and the other only if needed to remove OPO from using peroxide with UV-C. No clue if that acts like ozone in SW.

Since I’ll be running algae then I expect DOC will be produced.

Still learning about sponges and cryptic zones which seems very promising.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What other options are there to remove that besides water changes? Perhaps Sponges?

Without specifying an exact structure, I can only list the typical ways such organics may be removed, including GAC, various polymers such as Purigen, skimming, water changes, and ozone (which can alter some of them chemically without removing them, possibly making them less toxic).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Then is there an actual concern with DOC or just another item than can be easily solved?

Without stating which compound you are asking about, it’s not possible to say which, if any of those, methods will remove it. Using several of them certainly increases the likelihood.

 

[GARRIGA]

If you eat a big dinner and then go to the bathroom

Has the problem of eating been easily solved?

Has the actual concern for eating gone away?

Keeping life in a box tends to cause certain issues to keep repeating and only solution being not keeping life in a box or my approach seeking solutions to those issues.

For example, eat two large meals daily absent sugar and you'll go less to the bathroom. I know because I've done that. Solution wasn't to stop having big dinners.

 

[GARRIGA]

Without stating which compound you are asking about, it’s not possible to say which, if any of those, methods will remove it. Using several of them certainly increases the likelihood.

How confident are you in the new DOC tests at identifying exactly that affecting any system so it can be better targeted?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How confident are you in the new DOC tests at identifying exactly that affecting any system so it can be better targeted?

It’s useless for that purpose, unless your goal is to just drive down all organics. Ethanol from vodka dosing and palytoxin both show up similarly.

 

[DCR]

But I assume those type of bacteria exist in the depths of the pelagic zones?

I just know that we use large concentrations of bacteria in industrial wastewater treatment processes to remove high concentrations of dissolved organic compounds (500-1000 ppm of total organic carbon) . Highly oxygenated process and have to be fed P and N. I would assume they exist everywhere. It probably does not have much practical application in a concentrated environment like a home aquarium, but I suspect that they play a large role in the ocean.

 

[GARRIGA]

It’s useless for that purpose, unless your goal is to just drive down all organics. Ethanol from vodka dosing and palytoxin both show up similarly.

Then is there an actual purpose for these DOC tests or just another revenue grab providing less benefit than marketed? I'm back to driving blind again.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Then is there an actual purpose for these DOC tests or just another revenue grab providing less benefit than marketed? I'm back to driving blind again.

It could tell one when GAC was depleted or perhaps to compare organic export methods in tests. Otherwise, IMO, it has a lot of work to do to prove its utility in reef husbandry. It’s just too broad of a brush.

 

[GARRIGA]

It could tell one when GAC was depleted or perhaps to compare organic export methods in tests. Otherwise, IMO, it has a lot of work to do to prove its utility in reef husbandry. It’s just too broad of a brush.

Thank you. Another one bites the dust from my to do list...

 

[DCR]

There are at least thousands and likely tens of thousands of potential organic substances that could be classified as DOC's. You could probably spend a career developing GC-MS methods for these and not come close to identifying and testing for all of them, let alone understanding how they affect corals. The world of organic chemistry is vastly more complex than the ionic world covered by ICP.

 

[Subsea]

With Moonshiners, Triton, etc. the goal is a self-sufficient system. But how can that be when there are immeasurable DOCs, toxins, etc. that are not being removed and left to build-up overtime? Why do we ignore common sense in hopes of avoiding waterchanges?

Why is it with FW hobbyists they are more religious about their waterchanges, while SW [some not all] hobbyists are looking for ways to avoid them?

Isn't it cheaper and better overall to do waterchanges and play it safe rather than risk stunting, algae problems, coral die offs, etc.?


This isn't meant to offend, just to open a discussion on this issue as it is concerning.

It’s been a while since I visited this thread. I am sure OP has heard this:

I don’t agree with the EPA axiom, “Dilution is the Solution to Pollution”. In an ever increasing global scarcity of fresh water, I say science can do better than that.
However, as an environmentalist, I choose to emulate nature in captive reef husbandry in using cryptic sponges to recycle inorganic nutrients into the microbial food web.

While I don’t know the details of the complexities of DOC, SpongeBob does.

 

[GARRIGA]

It’s been a while since I visited this thread. I am sure OP has heard this:

I don’t agree with the EPA axiom, “Dilution is the Solution to Pollution”. In an ever increasing global scarcity of fresh water, I say science can do better than that.
However, as an environmentalist, I choose to emulate nature in captive reef husbandry in using cryptic sponges to recycle inorganic nutrients into the microbial food web.

While I don’t know the details of the complexities of DOC, SpongeBob does.

Waste from RODI reason enough to stop or reduce water changes. Need to get up to speed on sponges. Plus buckets got old in the 70s

 

[VintageReefer]

I don’t avoid water changes. I don’t need them. I attribute this to my cryptic zone with live rock and sponge and my algae scrubber. I use all for reef to maintain the big 3 + trace. I manually supplement additional manganese

On top of not doing water changes I also don’t use a skimmer and don’t use a fleece roller, filter socks, or any mechanical filtration.

 

[PharmrJohn]

I don’t avoid water changes. I don’t need them. I attribute this to my cryptic zone with live rock and sponge and my algae scrubber. I use all for reef to maintain the big 3 + trace. I manually supplement additional manganese

On top of not doing water changes I also don’t use a skimmer and don’t use a fleece roller, filter socks, or any mechanical filtration.

And if I'd not seen your tank I would think it would be substandard secondary to non use of those two pieces of equipment (call me old school!). You've got a flat out BEAUTIFUL set up.

 

[VintageReefer]

Documenting non need of water changes, skimmers or mech filtration

 

[Subsea]

Documenting non need of water changes, skimmers or mech filtration

I practice those identical things, yet my tanks don’t stack up to yours.

Kudos to your diligence and a beautiful display.

 

[VintageReefer]

I practice those identical things, yet my tanks don’t stack up to yours.

Kudos to your diligence and a beautiful display.

Are your methods keeping parameters in check? If parameters are in check then the methods are working for the water.

Next thing is lighting. You need proper lighting to maximize the colors. I’m not saying you do or you don’t. Just a generalized statement. I don’t remember offhand what you have.

A big thing - and it maybe obvious once you think about it - is the coral selection process. I try to only buy good looking coral. It doesn’t matter what your setup is, some things will never stand out.


I dont buy drab things or average things hoping they color up. I don’t buy all things of the same color. I’ve ended up with tanks that were all neon green before. It’s a common color for various corals to glow. I pick a color I want that I’m missing. Then I hunt down corals in that color. I don’t search by type. I search by color. I decide if my tank needs gold or orange or pink or whatever. I pick the color first. Then I find nice specimens that are that color. I try to place things so that contrasting colors are adjacent. It maximizes the effect and they both make each other stand out more

The coral I get looks just like it does when I buy it. Sometimes they morph and become nicer. Everything is hand selected and bought because it had some quality or attribute that stood out. Yes I’ve been let down by edited pics. But those corals will be sold to the LFS to make room for new ones that are nicer. Or to make room for existing ones to grow

Examples
This acan will never color up into something nice. It’s a copper color and unless it drastically changes it will always be drab. Looks like a bunch of B-holes to me lol

These acans are vibrant and unique. A much better platform to start with and grow out

This hammer was a victim of severe photoshopping. In person I can tell it will never be a showstopper.

It’s nice, it has blue tips, but it isn’t “special”. It was a poor choice that I made, but again, not like the seller photos

These lobo colonies, were great choices. Same with the grail torch. They arrived like this. They look like this in person. They stand out and call attention to themselves

This is the mentality and thought process I have when selecting coral. Not all of my choices worked out the way I planned. But for the most part, I feel the key to having a vibrant multicolored display, is three equal things. Water, lighting, and just as important - coral selection