Why cant u keep sps?

[SeaDweller]

No matters which system or brand that you chose the result won't be drastically improved until 1 year. Give it time and your efforts will be rewarded

It’s hard to say at that point if it’s bacteria or not though, don’t you agree?

 

[ycnibrc]

I started dosing prodibio biodigest and bioptom every 15 days. Hoping that's what my dry startup tank needs!

Question: I set my tank up with dry real reef rock. Im debating taking out the right structure in my tank and replacing it with real ocean rock which was from fiji that I saved but its since been bleach cleaned and dried. Obviously not live with ocean bacteria any more but would this rock still serve better as a bio filter than this man-made stuff? Would it be a poor choice to remove half my rock in my small 75 gallon in terms of a possible cycle doing this?

Depends how porous between the 2 rocks. You want to use the most porous rock.

 

[ycnibrc]

It’s hard to say at that point if it’s bacteria or not though, don’t you agree?

The reason I believe bacteria is one of the main key to successfully keeping corals is my experience with the old way with real live rock vs new with dry rock.
Hypothetical we can set up 2 identical tank with similar parameters , light and flow. One with dry rock and one with live rock. I'm pretty certain the one with live rock will have better chance of success of keeping Sps.
I compare the beneficial bacteria like the white blood cell and seawater like blood. Corals live in seawater and the beneficial bacteria help the Coral stay healthy without it corals can't survive for longer periods. Sometimes we focus too much on parameters and forgot about the biological side of the tank.
I'm pretty certain a perfect parameters tank with the best light and flow can't keep Sps right away until the biological side established

 

[t5Nitro]

Depends how porous between the 2 rocks. You want to use the most porous rock.

I've been told real reef isn't very porous so thought about switching it out for my old fiji rock. Im adding matrix to the sump. Maybe let mateix colonize first and then think about swapping the rocks.

 

[ycnibrc]

I've been told real reef isn't very porous so thought about switching it out for my old fiji rock. Im adding matrix to the sump. Maybe let mateix colonize first and then think about swapping the rocks.

Sound good

 

[t5Nitro]

Had a question about flow as well. I've got a macspext gyre xf330 on top left end of tank running gradual pulse 10-70%. On the back right wall nestled close to the back right end glass I have a tunze 6095 pulsing every 2 seconds set to about 40% power. Im debating also adding a third WaveMaker to the tank, on the side of the gyre but half way down the tank on the left behind the rocks. It seems even still this is a place algae wants to grow so maybe not enough flow still?

This is all in a 3x2 ft 75g.

 

[ycnibrc]

Had a question about flow as well. I've got a macspext gyre xf330 on top left end of tank running gradual pulse 10-70%. On the back right wall nestled close to the back right end glass I have a tunze 6095 pulsing every 2 seconds set to about 40% power. Im debating also adding a third WaveMaker to the tank, on the side of the gyre but half way down the tank on the left behind the rocks. It seems even still this is a place algae wants to grow so maybe not enough flow still?

This is all in a 3x2 ft 75g.

Flow is an interesting category in reef keeping. As most reefer think flow will help corals transport food and waste however some low flow tank doing pretty good. I believe BRS has a video on this topic. The only definitely positive effect from high flow tank is less detritus accumulated on the sand bed or bottom will lead to less undesired algae grow in those areas.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Flow is an interesting category in reef keeping. As most reefer think flow will help corals transport food and waste however some low flow tank doing pretty good. I believe BRS has a video on this topic. The only definitely positive effect from high flow tank is less detritus accumulated on the sand bed or bottom will lead to less undesired algae grow in those areas.

Well I would add - healthier, thicker and more natural growth with great flow (meaning turbulent and random).

 

[SeaDweller]

The reason I believe bacteria is one of the main key to successfully keeping corals is my experience with the old way with real live rock vs new with dry rock.
Hypothetical we can set up 2 identical tank with similar parameters , light and flow. One with dry rock and one with live rock. I'm pretty certain the one with live rock will have better chance of success of keeping Sps.
I compare the beneficial bacteria like the white blood cell and seawater like blood. Corals live in seawater and the beneficial bacteria help the Coral stay healthy without it corals can't survive for longer periods. Sometimes we focus too much on parameters and forgot about the biological side of the tank.
I'm pretty certain a perfect parameters tank with the best light and flow can't keep Sps right away until the biological side established

I hear you, I guess my question was more along the lines at 1 year, can we say it’s the Regularly added bacterial additives or the fact that it’s really more “stable” and mature at the year mark?

also, just for the sake of friendly discussion, since you mention setting up two tanks; what if a seasoned hobbyist sets up a new tank with dead rock and maybe a bottle of biospira to begin with (or not, maybe fish?) vs a noob who has real ocean live rock and no experience? Two totally opposite ends of the spectrum, and I feel either can be successful. I’ve seen it time and time again that hobbyists that have been in it for YEARS can start up a dead tank and not have issues, no bottled Bac needed.

Food for thought.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Most all the bacterias sold in bottles claim results should be seen quickly. I don’t see how waiting a year would be different between bacteria dosed daily or not. Maybe the amount of food the tank could handle would be slightly more but that shouldn’t take a year to happen. I like this topic a lot but I feel like it’s a lot more involved than just adding bacteria. Adding live rock most always ends up helping tanks that are not processing things correctly but bacteria in a bottle, not as much. I think the life that comes on the live rock is invaluable but even then the live rock is just a quick way to start. I have seen many tanks do amazing that were dry rock.
I would bet most people who fail with dry rock fail because they had issues like over feeding, too much filtration, light used incorrectly and things like that which sometimes seems like everything is right and perfect but normally we overlook the simplest of things when searching for what’s wrong. We tend to go straight to complicated. Now I do believe that some dry rock might have more issues than others and might need more treatment before added or more time to cycle properly but it should all work in the end without bottled bacteria supplements.
I have used bacteria when going through rough patches when corals were stressed from something and I have dosed them for a year or so straight and never really seen a difference either way except for maybe clearer water for a bit in the beginning. Sorry but I am kinda just trying to keep the conversation going by being the opposite here, I am no expert, I just have my experience.
Honestly I believe the bacteria produced from using a carbon source is more beneficial to the whole tank than any bottled bacteria. And there is no need to add anything other than the carbon source for success.

 

[SeaDweller]

Most all the bacterias sold in bottles claim results should be seen quickly. I don’t see how waiting a year would be different between bacteria dosed daily or not. Maybe the amount of food the tank could handle would be slightly more but that shouldn’t take a year to happen. I like this topic a lot but I feel like it’s a lot more involved than just adding bacteria. Adding live rock most always ends up helping tanks that are not processing things correctly but bacteria in a bottle, not as much. I think the life that comes on the live rock is invaluable but even then the live rock is just a quick way to start. I have seen many tanks do amazing that were dry rock.
I would bet most people who fail with dry rock fail because they had issues like over feeding, too much filtration, light used incorrectly and things like that which sometimes seems like everything is right and perfect but normally we overlook the simplest of things when searching for what’s wrong. We tend to go straight to complicated. Now I do believe that some dry rock might have more issues than others and might need more treatment before added or more time to cycle properly but it should all work in the end without bottled bacteria supplements.
I have used bacteria when going through rough patches when corals were stressed from something and I have dosed them for a year or so straight and never really seen a difference either way except for maybe clearer water for a bit in the beginning. Sorry but I am kinda just trying to keep the conversation going by being the opposite here, I am no expert, I just have my experience.
Honestly I believe the bacteria produced from using a carbon source is more beneficial to the whole tank than any bottled bacteria. And there is no need to add anything other than the carbon source for success.

Very true.

And for the record, I don’t think Anthony is saying bacteria in a bottle is the solution to the problem and magically all the SPS will survive, but it may be something one could add, and well, maybe a year later something good will happen, or maybe it will happen on its own.

 

[ycnibrc]

Very true.

And for the record, I don’t think Anthony is saying bacteria in a bottle is the solution to the problem and magically all the SPS will survive, but it may be something one could add, and well, maybe a year later something good will happen, or maybe it will happen on its own.

Since zeovit don't tell u what's in the bottle so nobody knows however the zeobak said it contains multiple microorganisms and the zeostart3 has multiple strain of bacteria culture. I'm more interested in the microorganisms because that's what real live rock provide.
The bacteria from zeostart3 which consume nutrients u can get that from carbon dosing such as vodka, sugar and vinegar or nopox.
I believe some how u need to introduce the microorganisms and bacteria into your tank via live rock, dosing or through the Coral that u introduce to your tank. Your tank bacteria culture can't start with just dry rock and synthetic salt water.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I wonder how close to a vodka sugar vinegar mix the zeo start 3 is. Since it contains three and vsv has been the standard three mix carbon source. I almost considered adding sugar at one point but after research divided not to unless it was a very small amount. I forget what sugar does differently but I believes it breaks down into something more useful for the actual corals maybe? I gotta re-read on this stuff. I didn’t get my tank to turn around this time until I added vodka back to my vinegar. Which is interesting. It rebounded quickly and right when nutrients started being used from the addition as well.

 

[t5Nitro]

I wonder how close to a vodka sugar vinegar mix the zeo start 3 is. Since it contains three and vsv has been the standard three mix carbon source. I almost considered adding sugar at one point but after research divided not to unless it was a very small amount. I forget what sugar does differently but I believes it breaks down into something more useful for the actual corals maybe? I gotta re-read on this stuff. I didn’t get my tank to turn around this time until I added vodka back to my vinegar. Which is interesting. It rebounded quickly and right when nutrients started being used from the addition as well.

Good to hear positive impact of this dosing. I started following this DIY nopox recipe.

 

[ycnibrc]

I wonder how close to a vodka sugar vinegar mix the zeo start 3 is. Since it contains three and vsv has been the standard three mix carbon source. I almost considered adding sugar at one point but after research divided not to unless it was a very small amount. I forget what sugar does differently but I believes it breaks down into something more useful for the actual corals maybe? I gotta re-read on this stuff. I didn’t get my tank to turn around this time until I added vodka back to my vinegar. Which is interesting. It rebounded quickly and right when nutrients started being used from the addition as well.

Between zeostart3 , nopox and vodka, sugar and vinegar are very similar as far as what their function is. For me zeostart3 is easy to dose and it's very effective to reduce nutrients sometime too good.

 

[MnFish1]

How long have you been dosing it? For my tank the change start around 1 year and the growth explosion begging. It takes time for the biology of your tank to establish almost like a new cycle

Curious - how do you know it was the 'bacteria' as compared to just 'time'? Every tank will grow more bacteria over the course of time - whether added or not. What would be interesting to see is if you did an analysis of your tank bacteria population as compared to the the bottle of bacteria you're adding. My 'guess' would be they will be totally different (there is a company @AquaBiomics that does these

 

[MnFish1]

Flow is an interesting category in reef keeping. As most reefer think flow will help corals transport food and waste however some low flow tank doing pretty good. I believe BRS has a video on this topic. The only definitely positive effect from high flow tank is less detritus accumulated on the sand bed or bottom will lead to less undesired algae grow in those areas.

And oxygen/CO2 gas exchange is markedly improved with higher flow

 

[ycnibrc]

Curious - how do you know it was the 'bacteria' as compared to just 'time'? Every tank will grow more bacteria over the course of time - whether added or not. What would be interesting to see is if you did an analysis of your tank bacteria population as compared to the the bottle of bacteria you're adding. My 'guess' would be they will be totally different (there is a company @AquaBiomics that does these

Bacteria do grow however they get skim, die off and eating by Coral. My experience with older tank sometime have mysterious crash I suspect the reason why is the amount of the bacteria has exceeded by the amount of dieing off, eaten and consume. Back in the old day we use to call it old tank syndrome

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Good to hear positive impact of this dosing. I started following this DIY nopox recipe.

I have been using carbon sources for a long time and never been happier since I started. Many people don’t understand the amazing benifits you get when using a carbon source, from amazing sponge growth to extra life being fed throughout the tank from the bottom up. They tend to focus on people’s bad experiences from misuse or just repeat inaccurate info from threads they read. When used right (which is not hard) it can do amazing things for a tank with a decent fish population.

 

[t5Nitro]

I have been using carbon sources for a long time and never been happier since I started. Many people don’t understand the amazing benifits you get when using a carbon source, from amazing sponge growth to extra life being fed throughout the tank from the bottom up. They tend to focus on people’s bad experiences from misuse or just repeat inaccurate info from threads they read. When used right (which is not hard) it can do amazing things for a tank with a decent fish population.

Good to hear. That DIY recipe recommends following NOPOX dose instructions, since it's supposed to be just about identical. My goal dose should be 6ml daily, and I've just been cautiously dosing 2-3 mL every day.