why do water changes?

[jda]

How long has ICP been available in Eurpoe? Here, it has not been around long enough at all to get any credit for a single NWC tank.

Why do you keep up with the "crappy salt?" Are the two best salt mixes not available in The Netherlands? This is a big time red herring. I do not disagree that there are bad salts, but everybody knows what the good ones are and they can be found, had and used. This is as useless as saying to use tap water when everybody who reefs has access to RO if they choose.

Like I have said, your tanks all look great, but trying to point out to people who might be reading that you actually do work on them, not just get lazy and leave them alone. Well all know that DSR takes some work, but most people think that they can just stop changing water and do nothing. If people read that not doing water changes also requires work and a cost commitment for ICP, then they can make a better choice for them. ...again, all in the details.

Here is I have gotten from this thread. People who will always change water. People who probably never will... these seem to be split into two groups - people who deliberately work hard and spend money not to change water and those who are lazy. The results will differ between the deliberate and the lazy, but the methodology, assumptions and nuance gets mixed between the two.

 

[Sallstrom]

How long has ICP been available in Eurpoe? Here, it has not been around long enough at all to get any credit for a single NWC tank.

Why do you keep up with the "crappy salt?" Are the two best salt mixes not available in The Netherlands? This is a big time red herring. I do not disagree that there are bad salts, but everybody knows what the good ones are and they can be found, had and used. This is as useless as saying to use tap water when everybody who reefs has access to RO if they choose.

Like I have said, your tanks all look great, but trying to point out to people who might be reading that you actually do work on them, not just get lazy and leave them alone. Well all know that DSR takes some work, but most people think that they can just stop changing water and do nothing. If people read that not doing water changes also requires work and a cost commitment for ICP, then they can make a better choice for them. ...again, all in the details.

Here is I have gotten from this thread. People who will always change water. People who probably never will... these seem to be split into two groups - people who deliberately work hard and spend money not to change water and those who are lazy. The results will differ between the deliberate and the lazy, but the methodology, assumptions and nuance gets mixed between the two.

I agree. But you missed the point on crappy salt. That was a comparison to not change water and not do the job required.
We got good salt in Europe too

 

[hart24601]

There is where the assumption WC are better goes wrong. You are doing half a method, so you get half result

.
You also compare neglect followed by a WC with getting on top of things and taking control of your tank.


Read into the system i apply then you will see we are talking about a very different appoach.

http://www.DSRreefing.com/history

I really like the DSR and your posts glenn

How long has ICP been available in Eurpoe? Here, it has not been around long enough at all to get any credit for a single NWC tank.

Why do you keep up with the "crappy salt?" Are the two best salt mixes not available in The Netherlands? This is a big time red herring. I do not disagree that there are bad salts, but everybody knows what the good ones are and they can be found, had and used. This is as useless as saying to use tap water when everybody who reefs has access to RO if they choose.

Like I have said, your tanks all look great, but trying to point out to people who might be reading that you actually do work on them, not just get lazy and leave them alone. Well all know that DSR takes some work, but most people think that they can just stop changing water and do nothing. If people read that not doing water changes also requires work and a cost commitment for ICP, then they can make a better choice for them. ...again, all in the details.

Here is I have gotten from this thread. People who will always change water. People who probably never will... these seem to be split into two groups - people who deliberately work hard and spend money not to change water and those who are lazy. The results will differ between the deliberate and the lazy, but the methodology, assumptions and nuance gets mixed between the two.

This is also what I hope someone takes away from the thread. I worry a lot of people will read no W/C = no work. There is a big difference between experienced reefers deciding to adopt a nwc system and someone new that just doesn't like to haul buckets but doesn't know what happy coral look like or have not developed an eye for it yet. There is still dedication it takes to run nwc.

And like the brs video I posted there seem to be additional challenges when setting up a new system with nwc.

There are a few amazing examples of nwc tanks, have they reached a point where one had finally eclisped the nicest tank that gets waterchanges? They can keep species previously impossible? Breed livestock that has never been done before?

 

[Montiman]

Look into the powerfilter that does the job very well!
http://dsrreefing.com/powerfilter/

Then I would have to clean that filter regularly. I also have a strong suspicion it still wouldn’t solve the problem as it can only catch what gets sucked in but I am sure I would still get pockets I would want to clean. When I have used the fine 25 micron oceanclear and nuclear filters I still had detritus pockets.

In the end is it really easier to use a specialized filter that requires frequent maintenance and probably won’t do the job as well or just do a water change every few months.

 

[Lasse]

Not anywhere in this thread anyone doing no regular WC have claimed that´s because of we are lazy. We just tell how our tanks works and why we have chose this path and what the demand is. Should we do not do this because there is a risk that som "dumb" beginners will only adapt part of what we are saying. Bad or good salts - I have had issues even with "good salts" - especially the ones with pro, advanced, bio or what ever label. But that´s my experiences. Other can have other experiences. Note "dumb" is not my thinking but some post indicate that there is "dumb" person that start tanks and reading here in order to get knowledge

Here is I have gotten from this thread. People who will always change water. People who probably never will... these seem to be split into two groups - people who deliberately work hard and spend money not to change water and those who are lazy. The results will differ between the deliberate and the lazy, but the methodology, assumptions and nuance gets mixed between the two.

In this thread - who have advocate no WC because of laziness without joking a little? All post I have seen in this thread report one or another method for this.

I have use Triton ICP for more than 3.5 years, 2.5 year with the present aquaria. I know that David start to analyse back at October 2014. that aquaria has have no WC since that. Is nearly 4 year long enough? How many tanks with regular WC looks like that? Do you mean that every beginner that use regular WC (which apparently you do not do by your self every time) will achieve the same result only they handle regular water changes?

GlennF´s method is build on additives - as the Triton method too. GlennF´s method do not incorporates only the important additives (those that can´t be add through the food or very difficult to measure) - Triton´s method is build on checking even these compounds. Both methods works well. I think that Tritons own aquaria was rather old before it was broken down - this article at least indicate that - I think you was asking about clams before too GlennF´s aquaria is 15 years old.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[biophilia]

IMO and in your case - the skimmer will be the most important input of pollutants because it is one of the best gas exchangers that exist. Gas from the air will be transported down into the water. A active carbon filter before the skimmer intake would probably be a good solution if the air is heavy polluted. It will take away the worst contaminants.

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks - that’s a great idea. I’ll rig up something this weekend using a container full of carbon filter floss and some airline. I’ve been wanting to cut back on water changes because it seems ridiculous to do them as often as I do — especially when I have to “dirty up” the new water by adding NO3 just to keep it from being depleted too rapidly.

 

[glennf]

Then I would have to clean that filter regularly. I also have a strong suspicion it still wouldn’t solve the problem as it can only catch what gets sucked in but I am sure I would still get pockets I would want to clean. When I have used the fine 25 micron oceanclear and nuclear filters I still had detritus pockets.

In the end is it really easier to use a specialized filter that requires frequent maintenance and probably won’t do the job as well or just do a water change every few months.

Ok, no problem.... it was meant as possible solution to your problem.[emoji6]

 

[glennf]

Not anywhere in this thread anyone doing no regular WC have claimed that´s because of we are lazy. We just tell how our tanks works and why we have chose this path and what the demand is. Should we do not do this because there is a risk that som "dumb" beginners will only adapt part of what we are saying. Bad or good salts - I have had issues even with "good salts" - especially the ones with pro, advanced, bio or what ever label. But that´s my experiences. Other can have other experiences. Note "dumb" is not my thinking but some post indicate that there is "dumb" person that start tanks and reading here in order to get knowledge



In this thread - who have advocate no WC because of laziness without joking a little? All post I have seen in this thread report one or another method for this.

I have use Triton ICP for more than 3.5 years, 2.5 year with the present aquaria. I know that David start to analyse back at October 2014. that aquaria has have no WC since that. Is nearly 4 year long enough? How many tanks with regular WC looks like that? Do you mean that every beginner that use regular WC (which apparently you do not do by your self every time) will achieve the same result only they handle regular water changes?

GlennF´s method is build on additives - as the Triton method too. GlennF´s method do not incorporates only the important additives (those that can´t be add through the food or very difficult to measure) - Triton´s method is build on checking even these compounds. Both methods works well. I think that Tritons own aquaria was rather old before it was broken down - this article at least indicate that - I think you was asking about clams before too GlennF´s aquaria is 15 years old.

Sincerely Lasse

Agreed.

We can't do anything about "dumd" and "stuborn" people.
Even with or without wc many are bound to fail in the hobby.

There is still common sense and science to consider.

We can't afford to neglect things.
We can't assume things will go our way.
We can't assume magic elixers will solve all problems.
We can't assume anyone with WC will automaticly get a "magazine worthy" tank, nor can we assume some without WC will get any.

We can replace hard labour for intellect
We can afford to be "lazy" when we use our brains and resources instead.
We can automate dosings, sit back and enjoy.
We can/need to learn more and faster when you plan to go without WC, because you learn to understand the dynamics of your tank from.the beginning and not after you stuff it to the rimm with expensive corals.

 

[glennf]

How long has ICP been available in Eurpoe? Here, it has not been around long enough at all to get any credit for a single NWC tank.

Why do you keep up with the "crappy salt?" Are the two best salt mixes not available in The Netherlands? This is a big time red herring. I do not disagree that there are bad salts, but everybody knows what the good ones are and they can be found, had and used. This is as useless as saying to use tap water when everybody who reefs has access to RO if they choose.

Like I have said, your tanks all look great, but trying to point out to people who might be reading that you actually do work on them, not just get lazy and leave them alone. Well all know that DSR takes some work, but most people think that they can just stop changing water and do nothing. If people read that not doing water changes also requires work and a cost commitment for ICP, then they can make a better choice for them. ...again, all in the details.

Here is I have gotten from this thread. People who will always change water. People who probably never will... these seem to be split into two groups - people who deliberately work hard and spend money not to change water and those who are lazy. The results will differ between the deliberate and the lazy, but the methodology, assumptions and nuance gets mixed between the two.

I don't use ICP fro my tanks. Just plain home tests which are calibrated with a reference does the job.

Even the best brands had batch problems with homogenity before and will continue to have them in the future.
It's just an undeniable fact that mixture may become "unmixed" in the proces of filling, transport, up to the moment of using the salt.
I have seen reeftanks get setback for years because of these problems. Because they never knew up to the moment they discovered the real problem was the salt they rely on to do the job was the real problem.

By not using WC, i worked around 1 problem.
Why let others and their mishaps decide how my reeftanks should run. I rather crash due to my own stupid mistake than rely on things i can't control. But that's just me....

 

[fishead]

Thanks for a very interesting and thought provoking thread guys. Having close and maybe next day access to ICP testing might make a big difference in accurate numbers. Here's a link to Jack Kent's talk at Reef Palooza on the subject:
Differing test results from three different labs on the same water is a worry.
I'm in Australia. Never had an ICP test but would assume it to be a long drawn out time frame for us and all of Jack's concerns in the link would be amplified.
Right now I'm in the gear hoarding stage of a new build and will be doing daily auto water changes as i think this is my best coarse at the moment.

 

[RajV]

Thanks for a very interesting and thought provoking thread guys. Having close and maybe next day access to ICP testing might make a big difference in accurate numbers. Here's a link to Jack Kent's talk at Reef Palooza on the subject:
Differing test results from three different labs on the same water is a worry.
I'm in Australia. Never had an ICP test but would assume it to be a long drawn out time frame for us and all of Jack's concerns in the link would be amplified.
Right now I'm in the gear hoarding stage of a new build and will be doing daily auto water changes as i think this is my best coarse at the moment.

This has been a fantastic thread , i will continue to read as it builds . As far as this video goes , id hate to say but , dont go after Jacks endorsement . This is what you will get https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/icp-testing.293632/

 

[Shaun Sweeney]

I do weekly changes of about 25% using local ocean water. All I can say is people say the tank looks brighter after a change. Another local hobbyist - who happens to be a biologist at Federal Fisheries - says that providing I use the new water I collect within 3 days, there are numerous benefits from micro bacteria and such. I try to introduce the new water the same day.

 

[Lasse]

I do weekly changes of about 25% using local ocean water. All I can say is people say the tank looks brighter after a change. Another local hobbyist - who happens to be a biologist at Federal Fisheries - says that providing I use the new water I collect within 3 days, there are numerous benefits from micro bacteria and such. I try to introduce the new water the same day.

But this is natural living water - every time well mixed. That´s a total different story IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I do weekly changes of about 25% using local ocean water. All I can say is people say the tank looks brighter after a change. Another local hobbyist - who happens to be a biologist at Federal Fisheries - says that providing I use the new water I collect within 3 days, there are numerous benefits from micro bacteria and such. I try to introduce the new water the same day.

I also have a handy supply of NSW, & thats the only reason i do water changes every so often, for the microbes

 

[glennf]

Thanks for a very interesting and thought provoking thread guys. Having close and maybe next day access to ICP testing might make a big difference in accurate numbers. Here's a link to Jack Kent's talk at Reef Palooza on the subject:
Differing test results from three different labs on the same water is a worry.
I'm in Australia. Never had an ICP test but would assume it to be a long drawn out time frame for us and all of Jack's concerns in the link would be amplified.
Right now I'm in the gear hoarding stage of a new build and will be doing daily auto water changes as i think this is my best coarse at the moment.

I never used icp to control my tank.
Just widely available marine tests which i calibrate myself.
http://dsrreefing.com/testkits/

 

[Sallstrom]

But this is natural living water - every time well mixed. That´s a total different story IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

Last time we tried to get natural sea water with a water truck, we got 15m3 brackish water We needed to add a lot of salt(and probably killed all the good stuff in the water). You can't trust the sea water on the Swedish west coast!

 

[glennf]

I do weekly changes of about 25% using local ocean water. All I can say is people say the tank looks brighter after a change. Another local hobbyist - who happens to be a biologist at Federal Fisheries - says that providing I use the new water I collect within 3 days, there are numerous benefits from micro bacteria and such. I try to introduce the new water the same day.

Luxury which 90% of the reefers don't have acces to[emoji6].

From ecological stand this would require to much energy to transport and distribute. So not a very eco friendly solution.

It also take up a lot of space to handle and stock.

System with NWC require very little extra space.
Just a tank and all supporting technics under the tank.

 

[glennf]

Last time we tried to get natural sea water with a water truck, we got 15m3 brackish water We needed to add a lot of salt(and probably killed all the good stuff in the water). You can't trust the sea water on the Swedish west coast!

And used a lot of gasoline to transport it to the location. Not a very eco friendly solution.

 

[Sallstrom]

And used a lot of gasoline to transport it to the location. Not a very eco friendly solution.

I agree. And we mix all our saltwater from RO water now. And use a lot less water since we measure and monitor more and change less water.

20 years ago or more, the ferry from Gothenburg to England filled up water from the North Sea which then where transported to the museum by truck(1km). We still have those water reservoirs under the floor at the museum, where that new water were stored. Some history

 

[glennf]

I agree. And we mix all our saltwater from RO water now. And use a lot less water since we measure and monitor more and change less water.

20 years ago or more, the ferry from Gothenburg to England filled up water from the North Sea which then where transported to the museum by truck(1km). We still have those water reservoirs under the floor at the museum, where that new water were stored. Some history

Space to be reassigned a new destination?