Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[Gribbliest]

https://www.facebook.com/150289744990766/posts/2667216843298031?s=647735161&sfns=xmwa

This is the latest update from my old lfs in the UK. Plenty of colonies...

 

[ReeferReefer]

Frags make sense to me for a variety of reasons. What doesn't make sense is the hobbyists selling them at retail price when they dont have the overhead of an actual business with a brick and mortar, employees, etc...

I don't see that a ton. Most of the time there is a good discount when it comes to hobbiest resale IME.

 

[acropora4u]

yes, I say we boycott all the online frag sellers...we can hold out from buying longer then they can go without sales

 

[alton]

Everyone knows what great looking corals you can get today because of a booming market, lets go back in time to 2000 to the best store in San Antonio

Not a whole lot to get excited about? My very first frogspawn came in 2003 and a super bright candy cane came in 2004.

 

[ReeferReefer]

yes, I say we boycott all the online frag sellers...we can hold out from buying longer then they can go without sales

I've never bought from one so I guess I have been boycotting them this whole time lol!

As I mentioned before, buying from your reef club is the way to go. Cheaper and more hardy corals IME.

 

[Biokabe]

This, exactly.

Every time these threads come up someone posts "why do you hate capitalism" or "its the free market baby". As if the consumer had no role in determining prices. (I guess the armchair economists skipped those lectures in their Econ classes)

Threads like this, discussions on social media, commenting on ridiculous frags prices in selling threads - these are the consumer putting his foot down. These arent idle complaining. These are signals from consumers.

Not to mention the absurd fallacy that the price of premium goods doesnt affect the price of budget goods in the same market sector. Yes, that $500 frag you bought affected the pricing of the budget frag I bought.

It is not only the right of consumers to complain about unfair prices, but actually their duty.

It's not complaining about prices that brings prices down. Businesses have been hearing about their prices being too high since the invention of currency.

If I'm running a business, I don't care how many people complain about my prices. I really, really don't. I care about how many people buy my products at the prices I have set, and how long it takes me to sell my products. If I struggle to move my products, then eventually I will lower the price. If a competitor shows up offering the same product for a lower price, then eventually I will lower the price. And... that's it. Barring regulations that govern my prices (which are absolutely necessary for certain products, such as health care, food and other basic staples), I don't care about anything else when it comes to setting my prices.

People will always complain about the price. If we want to do anything about the price, our only power as consumers lies in not buying the product until we're satisfied with the price. Trying to do this in an organized fashion is basically impossible. No matter how many people want to boycott online sellers, or refuse to buy until some magical "acceptable" price is reached, there are too many people who don't agree that the price is unreasonable and are willing to betray the boycott to pay the merchant's price.

Frags sell for a high price because we, as coral buyers, have decided that the price is acceptable. After all, we keep buying them. And there are buyers all up and down the pricing spectrum, from those who refuse to buy frags at all to those who are willing to shell out $2,000 for an OG bounce mushroom. Do I think that's ridiculous? Sure. Personally, I don't even like the way that bounce mushrooms look. I'd never pay $500, $900 or $2,000 for one. I wouldn't pay $200 for one. I might not even pay $50 for one.

But someone else will, and that's OK. It's not my money, and it's not my right to demand that the seller not sell the mushroom for that much when he has a buyer ready and willing to pay that much for it. If the buyer wants to shell out for an ugly abomination of a coral, that's his right as well. I can voice my opinion that it's not worth that much, even though I'm clearly wrong - someone was willing to buy it at that price, and that's what determines the worth of a product. And I can certainly vote with my wallet and not buy that coral. Once people start agreeing with me that a bounce mushroom isn't worth that much money, then the price of them will start to come down.

Corals have no inherent worth. Their worth is entirely dependent on how much we as consumers decide that they are worth. And right now, the prices that you see for corals - those are the prices that we have collectively settled upon.

yes, I say we boycott all the online frag sellers...we can hold out from buying longer then they can go without sales

You're certainly welcome to. Myself, I don't agree that coral prices, on the whole, are ridiculous. I have no problem with the online frag sellers. I've gotten some good pieces at good prices from them. The more expensive frags are too rich for me, so I don't buy them. Other people do. As they buy those corals, grow them, frag them and begin to compete with the original seller, prices will come down. Maybe in a few years, a Homewrecker acro or Aoi zoa will be in my price range, and I'll buy one then. If not, then I won't. In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy the massive variety of $5-$50 frags that those more expensive corals have subsidized.

 

[sghera64]

It's not complaining about prices that brings prices down. Businesses have been hearing about their prices being too high since the invention of currency.

If I'm running a business, I don't care how many people complain about my prices. I really, really don't. I care about how many people buy my products at the prices I have set, and how long it takes me to sell my products. If I struggle to move my products, then eventually I will lower the price. If a competitor shows up offering the same product for a lower price, then eventually I will lower the price. And... that's it. Barring regulations that govern my prices (which are absolutely necessary for certain products, such as health care, food and other basic staples), I don't care about anything else when it comes to setting my prices.

People will always complain about the price. If we want to do anything about the price, our only power as consumers lies in not buying the product until we're satisfied with the price. Trying to do this in an organized fashion is basically impossible. No matter how many people want to boycott online sellers, or refuse to buy until some magical "acceptable" price is reached, there are too many people who don't agree that the price is unreasonable and are willing to betray the boycott to pay the merchant's price.

Frags sell for a high price because we, as coral buyers, have decided that the price is acceptable. After all, we keep buying them. And there are buyers all up and down the pricing spectrum, from those who refuse to buy frags at all to those who are willing to shell out $2,000 for an OG bounce mushroom. Do I think that's ridiculous? Sure. Personally, I don't even like the way that bounce mushrooms look. I'd never pay $500, $900 or $2,000 for one. I wouldn't pay $200 for one. I might not even pay $50 for one.

But someone else will, and that's OK. It's not my money, and it's not my right to demand that the seller not sell the mushroom for that much when he has a buyer ready and willing to pay that much for it. If the buyer wants to shell out for an ugly abomination of a coral, that's his right as well. I can voice my opinion that it's not worth that much, even though I'm clearly wrong - someone was willing to buy it at that price, and that's what determines the worth of a product. And I can certainly vote with my wallet and not buy that coral. Once people start agreeing with me that a bounce mushroom isn't worth that much money, then the price of them will start to come down.

Corals have no inherent worth. Their worth is entirely dependent on how much we as consumers decide that they are worth. And right now, the prices that you see for corals - those are the prices that we have collectively settled upon.



You're certainly welcome to. Myself, I don't agree that coral prices, on the whole, are ridiculous. I have no problem with the online frag sellers. I've gotten some good pieces at good prices from them. The more expensive frags are too rich for me, so I don't buy them. Other people do. As they buy those corals, grow them, frag them and begin to compete with the original seller, prices will come down. Maybe in a few years, a Homewrecker acro or Aoi zoa will be in my price range, and I'll buy one then. If not, then I won't. In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy the massive variety of $5-$50 frags that those more expensive corals have subsidized.

+1. On the whole “words are worthless, and refusal to pay makes the day”.

1000 verbal price complaints get erased by a single buyer’s will to pay.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I think you are misinterpreting the intent behind my post. It is a global question, not specifically aimed at you. I DON'T care what other people buy. It is your money to spend however you want. If you want to pay champagne prices for 7 up that's your choice. I have some frags that I'd be happy to overcharge you for.

Don't assume the corals I buy currently are "ripped" out of the ocean. The ones I purchased 10-15 years ago, probably. Today, even most of the pieces I've seen have been aquacultured. And you don't think the big vendors who sell you a coral for $10, $20, $30 plus a polyp couldn't aquaculture larger pieces if they wanted to? Please. They don't have to because t0o many hobbyists are willing to shell out big bucks for little frags.

As I posted earlier, I bought an aquacultured Blasto with about 20 heads for $225. Or I could have purchased 4 heads for $240. Which is the better deal? I purchased a beautiful rose Paly from my LFS for $79.00. He had it in his shop for over a year and grew it from 5 heads. Nobody wanted to buy it, but people come in all day and buy frags with 3-4 polyps for $39.95. Same with a candy cane I bought from him.

20 Heads for $225
4 Heads for $240

Doesn't make any sense.

The 4 Head probably had better colors since the higher price.

A Coral is not a A Coral.

One can be cheap and one can be expensive.

Scientifically it might be the same coral but people pay for color.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I am a newbie, 1 year in the game and I have to agree with you. After spending so much money just to get setup, its very hard to get corals at a decent price. Yes I prefer frags so I can watch it grow, but the price and size you are getting is ridiculous and you not guaranteed it will survive in your tank. My water condition is within the hobby guideline and I can never grow a sps frag. So spending all that money for a little head is ridiculous . Thank god I found my LFS that has $15 frag section.

The Problem is where you are going.

Best Prices will be at a Coral Show (Frag Swap).

That is where I buy ALL of My Coral.

No $50 Shipping
No Dying in the Mail
No Coral Doesn't Look Like the Pic
Cheaper
etc.

I have bought Acros that are $40 to $60 at an LFS for $10 to $20 at a Frag Swap.

But Price is irrelevant since the Stores don't even have these Corals.

LFS Sell Common Ugly Corals usually.

 

[Waynerock]

I thought corals where way too cheep for a long time before real aquaculture. That super delicate thing getting taken from the ocean and getting shipped thousands of miles away to wind up in my rinky dink town way up in the mountains! Crazy that I was only paying 20-30 bucks for a giant torch from Indonesia! Now that hundreds of people if not thousands are basically printing money in there tanks the prices are nuts. It’s crazy I understand places not allowing export is effecting some corals but most of those corals still split and or drop babies at a decent rate. I like to see more people having success reefing heck I feel like I am like 1 out of 5 in my town that do it but the pricing is chasing everyone away. The vendors that are raking it in today will be the biggest hurt by there own prices once a huge chunk of reefers quit cause they can’t afford any cool new corals. Not only that but these dry goods companies will be in the same boat when very few people are around to pay 300.00 for a powerhead. I am just glad to be able to show my kids and friends things in my living room they will never see in real life or at all the way the oceans are going. Reefing has got crazy popular in the last 10-15 years and the tech has had some awesome leaps and bounds I would hate to see the bubble pop. I do however kinda like buying smaller frags and growing them out over getting colony’s. I do have a small tank though and frags in a 200 gal tank would suck and take forever to grow. I live the sense of accomplishment growing corals from nubs to colony’s though.

 

[that Reef Guy]

People saying colonies aren’t available have no idea what they are talking about.

My buddy is a VERY small operation and get 2-3 shipments a month from Cairns. He does 1/4 shipment frags and the rest are all colonies.

He has a green wall frogspawn easily as large as my forearm... $250

It’s easier to make money on frags, I would also like to see frags go to back to old school sizes though.

The Issue is not lack of Colonies but lack of people willing to pay for Colonies.

That is why Frags are Popular.

People don't want to pay as much.

I want a Ferrari.

Do I sit around and complain that it is not the same price as my Ford?

Of Course Not.

 

[EMeyer]

I don't care how many people complain about my prices. I really, really don't. I care about how many people buy my products at the prices I have set, and how long it takes me to sell my products. If I struggle to move my products, then eventually I will lower the price.

Good post, but are you really saying you don't think discussions among consumers play any role here?

When you're new to the hobby, and everyone says $50-$100 is a reasonable price for a frag, you either pay it or quit. If half the people you meet tell you "no way, thats highway robbery, don't pay more than $20", you keep looking until you find the better deals.

Discussions affect sales.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Once again you misconstrue my post. I'm not complaining I'm questioning. If you read my posts you'll see I do buy frags, I am just highly selective. I also have a 180gl tank. A few weeks ago I foolishly ordered some frags. Despite the advertisement, they were not, IMO, WYSIWYG. Instead of putting them in my frag rack, (again my mistake), I glued them into the tank. They looked nearly invisible. And then of course during the night my clean up crew knocked a number of them into holes and crevices.

I completely understand why frags are preferable in a nano tank.

"#4 Variety - Lets say you have $100 to spend (You can buy one bigger Colony for $100 or 5 $20 Frags). Then you have more Coral and More Variety."

I prefer quality over quantity.

"There are Colonies for Sale."

Really? Send me some links.

"Most people Prefer Frags these Days though Hence why there are so Many."

Do you really believe that? If you do I'm sorry but you have no real clear understanding of how market forces work.

Yes, I prefer Quality over Quantity to (What is your point)?

Send you links? Just go to your LFS (They have a ton of Colonies).

I know all about the coral market. Don't tell me I don't LOL.

Most People WANT colonies. The Issue is Most People are not willing to PAY for them.

Most Prefer Frags to save money or for a number of other reasons.

 

[that Reef Guy]

LOL!! I only have 40 years experience in freshwater, cichlid, FOWLR, and reef tank experience, so I have no REAL understanding of how things work. Does Cherry Coral pay you to shill for them or do you do it for free? BTW, I have probably GIVEN AWAY more coral than you have ever purchased.

I recommend them because they sell good Corals. Not everyone does (Pests, Fresh Cuts, Don't take Care of their Coral, etc.)

How does your Freshwater Experience matter here?

40 Years - Being that most of that is Probably Freshwater and the fact I know Multiple people with 20 Years Experience that cannot even test their own water. 40 Years is irrelevant. It is Just a Number.

I am serious I know people who started keeping Coral a Month ago that Know more about Coral than People that have been doing it 20 Years.

P.S. whenever somebody says that they have been doing something for X amount of Years it typically means they don't know and they want to overcompensate by saying they have been doing something forever and therefore know. I am not saying you don't know because I do not know you. I am just saying.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Perhaps you have all the experience you say you have, but it seems a bit rude to talk that way. Especially coming from someone with 50 posts, talking to someone with almost 10k posts. @that Reef Guy is a well respected contributor in this community.

It just gets bothers me when people say things like "I have probably GIVEN AWAY more coral than you have ever purchased." There is no way to quantify that and its really just used to try to shut down any meaningful conversation.

Thanks for the Compliment

 

[that Reef Guy]

Doing something for a long time is not proof of anything other than persistence. I'm glad you're proud of your experience, but as @bluprntguy posted above, the statements that colonies aren't available appears to be incorrect.

Exactly.

I know multiple people that have Been in the Hobby for 20 Years Plus.

They Bring their Water into the LFS to be Checked.

Then they walk around telling everyone in the store that they have been doing this for 20 Years.

Then everyone laughs because they keep bragging about being in the Hobby for 20 Years yet they still have not learned how to test their water.

Time is Irrelevant.

I knew more after my First Week of Reefing than these Guys have Learned in 20 Years.

 

[rogersb]

I tried to get an LFS to frag a nice gold hammer colony for me two weeks ago and sell me a frag. He wouldn't do it. I had to buy the whole thing. I did buy it, but there is quite a bit of satisfaction I get in growing a frag into a colony. I really like this coral but I will probably never really have that satisfaction from this particular piece.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Actually, it is in response to someone saying:

"Maybe the OP is buying Frags of Stuff Just pulled from the Ocean and Killing them. Or Buying Fresh Cuts. You need to know what you are Buying." That is insulting, rude, and out of line. I have not insulted you, him, or any of your followers. Suggesting that I like to kill corals is him just being a jerk. And the number of posts he has posted is immaterial. If either you or RefferReefer cannot engage in polite discourse you should refrain from engaging at all.

"The Ocean is nothing like a Tank."
Well, thanks for pointing that out Cpt. Obvious.

"Corals Home Grown in Tanks are much more likely to live because they are used to Aquarium Life and Not Just Pulled from the Ocean."
Care to back that up with scientific data? Anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal.

"Times have changed."
No kidding. Back in the day, like 5 years ago, companies like Cherry Coral didn't try to convince unsuspecting newbies that paying $150 for a 2 polyp Big R Petroglyph Poly, (whatever the hell that is), they would have been laughed at.

1. LOL. Where did I say you "LIKE" to kill Coral?

You made the statement that Frags are Much Likely to Die than Coral.

I would argue just the opposite.

If that is indeed the problem that you are having then I posted some possibilities as to why you may be having that problem?

I never said you liked to Kill Coral (Nobody does).

2. You call me insulting? Perhaps you calling me Captain Obvious is insulting? There are people here at all Levels. Some Experts. Some Set up their First Reef Tank Yesterday. Even though many know that an Aquarium is totally different from the Ocean, the person that started yesterday does not. I have to assume that not everyone knows that. That is why I posted it. You are insulting to those that have not learned that yet.

3. My Data is personal experience as well as the personal experience of thousands of others. It is not "my opinion" it is the consensus of all reefers. Just look at all the other posts about people preferring Aquaculture over Wild. Many have mentioned the higher success level of aquaculture. And if you really believe that may I suggest you quit telling people you have been doing this for 40 years. It just makes you look worse. It didn't take the rest of use 40 years to learn something you don't even know yet.

4. Price is nothing new. People complained about it 10 years ago. So I don't know why you are acting like things changed 5 years ago.

 

[that Reef Guy]

It seems that there are a lot of people on the forums that don’t understand high school economics. The market determines the price, did we all forget about supply and demand?
It’s very simple high demand = high price, low demand will cause prices to drop.
When you combine a high demand with a low supply it makes prices even higher.
With the addition of an online market in this hobby we created a high demand, combined with movies like “ finding nemo” even more people came into the hobby. With the small amount of local fish stores across the country or just a lack of people knowledgeable on how to keep corals Alive compared to the amount of people interested in the hobby it limits the supply.
Now combine that with the recent Indo shut down which debatably cut off 80% of the coral supply to the world and the supply is even lower.
Low supply + high demand = high prices

On a side note no one ever adds inflation into this argument. When I was a kid I could buy a cheap loaf of bread from my local Albertsons for $0.10 now the cheapest I can buy a loaf of bread is $2-$3. What happened?? Why is it so expensive now? Oh yeah, we forgot about inflation. The dollar is not worth what it used to be so it’s not soo much the cost of things that went up the value of our money went down. The same cars that used to cost $15000 now cost $35000+. I’m tired of old timers saying I used to get a colony for $20-$30 and now it’s $100. When you add a 10-15 year difference that’s the same amount of money. It didn’t get more expensive your money got less valuable. I dare you to find any product in any market that is the same exact price as you paid 15 years ago. That’s just delusional.

Although I really love how no one cares about the state of the reef where all of these corals originally came from. They only care that the corals got more expensive. We need to get sustainable and we need to do it now before our hobby is gone for good.

It takes far money time, money and effort to supply an aquaculture frag than a wild caught and chopped frag. Unless customers are willing to pay more for an aquaculture frag we will continue to harvest from the ocean until nothing is left, have any of you watched chasing corals on Netflix? It might already be to late, our reefs are dying and our hobby is on the line. If you don’t support fragging and aquaculture then you are just as bad as the people pulling everything out of the oceans unsustainably.

Well Said.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Actually, I was referring to The Harold who you quoted. But it doesn't matter. Since the dawn of time people have allowed themselves to be hustled because they prefer the sizzle to the steak. My original post was expressing puzzlement over hobbyists being sold on buying, (what are to me), overpriced, overhyped little pieces of coral. I just don't understand, from a market perspective, why the vendors are allowed and able to set the table. Without the hobbyist, they would not be able to sell anything.

Instead of a discussion I was told that I like to kill corals, have no understanding of the hobby, and suffer from sexual dysfunction. I am 100% sure that these are comments that would not be made to my face, but like so many things on the Internet, anonymity provides safety.

I don't care if you buy frags, don't buy frags, or turn your tank into a terrarium.

Also, Since the Dawn of Time People have been Complaining.

Stop Complaining.

It is not your Money so Don't Worry.

You can Spend your money how you want (On Colonies - nothing wrong with that).

The Rest of Us will Buy Frags (Nothing wrong with that).

And if you DON'T CARE why did you make this post?