Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[Budannaman]

I give stuff away if I don’t want it....... you keep up that hustle though young G

Bwhahaha that’s cause your so awesome. Keep up the good work giving all those frags away

 

[mfrumkin]

Perhaps you have all the experience you say you have, but it seems a bit rude to talk that way. Especially coming from someone with 50 posts, talking to someone with almost 10k posts. @that Reef Guy is a well respected contributor in this community.

It just gets bothers me when people say things like "I have probably GIVEN AWAY more coral than you have ever purchased." There is no way to quantify that and its really just used to try to shut down any meaningful conversation.

Actually, it is in response to someone saying:

"Maybe the OP is buying Frags of Stuff Just pulled from the Ocean and Killing them. Or Buying Fresh Cuts. You need to know what you are Buying." That is insulting, rude, and out of line. I have not insulted you, him, or any of your followers. Suggesting that I like to kill corals is him just being a jerk. And the number of posts he has posted is immaterial. If either you or RefferReefer cannot engage in polite discourse you should refrain from engaging at all.

"The Ocean is nothing like a Tank."
Well, thanks for pointing that out Cpt. Obvious.

"Corals Home Grown in Tanks are much more likely to live because they are used to Aquarium Life and Not Just Pulled from the Ocean."
Care to back that up with scientific data? Anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal.

"Times have changed."
No kidding. Back in the day, like 5 years ago, companies like Cherry Coral didn't try to convince unsuspecting newbies that paying $150 for a 2 polyp Big R Petroglyph Poly, (whatever the hell that is), they would have been laughed at.

 

[mfrumkin]

That is uncalled for. No matter what he said.
at least you changed part of it.

Doing something for a long time is not proof of anything other than persistence. I'm glad you're proud of your experience, but as @bluprntguy posted above, the statements that colonies aren't available appears to be incorrect.

I have purchased from liveaquaria in the past and I will do so in the future. However, many of the pieces you call colonies would have been considered large frags or mini colonies 10 years ago.

 

[mfrumkin]

The problem with this analogy is that the dead piece of meat will never grow into a bigger dead piece of meat. If I spend $60 on the frag, it will eventually grow into the $250 colony (provided it survives long enough).

And my $250 colony will grow into a $600 colony that I will be able to share pieces of with friends.

 

[Jon Fishman]

And my $250 colony will grow into a $600 colony that I will be able to share pieces of with friends.

Don’t tell this guy that......

Bwhahaha that’s cause your so awesome. Keep up the good work giving all those frags away

 

[ReeferReefer]

Actually, it is in response to someone saying:

"Maybe the OP is buying Frags of Stuff Just pulled from the Ocean and Killing them. Or Buying Fresh Cuts. You need to know what you are Buying." That is insulting, rude, and out of line. I have not insulted you, him, or any of your followers. Suggesting that I like to kill corals is him just being a jerk. And the number of posts he has posted is immaterial. If either you or RefferReefer cannot engage in polite discourse you should refrain from engaging at all.

"The Ocean is nothing like a Tank."
Well, thanks for pointing that out Cpt. Obvious.

"Corals Home Grown in Tanks are much more likely to live because they are used to Aquarium Life and Not Just Pulled from the Ocean."
Care to back that up with scientific data? Anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal.

"Times have changed."
No kidding. Back in the day, like 5 years ago, companies like Cherry Coral didn't try to convince unsuspecting newbies that paying $150 for a 2 polyp Big R Petroglyph Poly, (whatever the hell that is), they would have been laughed at.

Where exactly have I been rude to you? If there was something inappropriate in my post, I will gladly remove it.

We are all on the same side here. It's just a friendly conversation.

If post count doesn't "count for anything" does the time reef keeping count for anything? I was just pointing out the difference in community involvement here, nothing more, nothing less.

I truly did not intend to upset you.

I commented my opinion on the rise of frags over colonies already so you can do what you will.

 

[Hogdaddy]

I am 5 months into corals...so really just barely a rookie....
Frags, though more $ per head, are more affordable for me to learn with...both what I like and how to care for them. I also do not mind spending a few extra bucks on frags at the LFS, as I enjoy going there and seeing, hearing, learning more about SW critters. I am really enjoying learning/figuring out how to get coral growth...

 

[Crabs McJones]

Reminder that fighting and personal attacks will not be tolerated. If someone is being rude to you, or "trolling" please report it to the mod team and we will look into it. Do not engage them.

 

[James Johnson]

It seems that there are a lot of people on the forums that don’t understand high school economics. The market determines the price, did we all forget about supply and demand?
It’s very simple high demand = high price, low demand will cause prices to drop.
When you combine a high demand with a low supply it makes prices even higher.
With the addition of an online market in this hobby we created a high demand, combined with movies like “ finding nemo” even more people came into the hobby. With the small amount of local fish stores across the country or just a lack of people knowledgeable on how to keep corals Alive compared to the amount of people interested in the hobby it limits the supply.
Now combine that with the recent Indo shut down which debatably cut off 80% of the coral supply to the world and the supply is even lower.
Low supply + high demand = high prices

On a side note no one ever adds inflation into this argument. When I was a kid I could buy a cheap loaf of bread from my local Albertsons for $0.10 now the cheapest I can buy a loaf of bread is $2-$3. What happened?? Why is it so expensive now? Oh yeah, we forgot about inflation. The dollar is not worth what it used to be so it’s not soo much the cost of things that went up the value of our money went down. The same cars that used to cost $15000 now cost $35000+. I’m tired of old timers saying I used to get a colony for $20-$30 and now it’s $100. When you add a 10-15 year difference that’s the same amount of money. It didn’t get more expensive your money got less valuable. I dare you to find any product in any market that is the same exact price as you paid 15 years ago. That’s just delusional.

Although I really love how no one cares about the state of the reef where all of these corals originally came from. They only care that the corals got more expensive. We need to get sustainable and we need to do it now before our hobby is gone for good.

It takes far money time, money and effort to supply an aquaculture frag than a wild caught and chopped frag. Unless customers are willing to pay more for an aquaculture frag we will continue to harvest from the ocean until nothing is left, have any of you watched chasing corals on Netflix? It might already be to late, our reefs are dying and our hobby is on the line. If you don’t support fragging and aquaculture then you are just as bad as the people pulling everything out of the oceans unsustainably.

 

[mfrumkin]

Where exactly have I been rude to you? If there was something inappropriate in my post, I will gladly remove it.

We are all on the same side here. It's just a friendly conversation.

If post count doesn't "count for anything" does the time reef keeping count for anything? I was just pointing out the difference in community involvement here, nothing more, nothing less.

I truly did not intend to upset you.

I commented my opinion on the rise of frags over colonies already so you can do what you will.

Actually, I was referring to The Harold who you quoted. But it doesn't matter. Since the dawn of time people have allowed themselves to be hustled because they prefer the sizzle to the steak. My original post was expressing puzzlement over hobbyists being sold on buying, (what are to me), overpriced, overhyped little pieces of coral. I just don't understand, from a market perspective, why the vendors are allowed and able to set the table. Without the hobbyist, they would not be able to sell anything.

Instead of a discussion I was told that I like to kill corals, have no understanding of the hobby, and suffer from sexual dysfunction. I am 100% sure that these are comments that would not be made to my face, but like so many things on the Internet, anonymity provides safety.

I don't care if you buy frags, don't buy frags, or turn your tank into a terrarium.

 

[mfrumkin]

It seems that there are a lot of people on the forums that don’t understand high school economics. The market determines the price, did we all forget about supply and demand?
just a lack of people knowledgeable on how to keep corals Alive compared to the amount of people interested in the hobby it limits the supply.
Now combine that with the recent Indo shut down which debatably cut off 80% of the coral supply to the world and the supply is even lower.
Low supply + high demand = high prices

I'm not sure there really is a low supply as much as the perception of low supply and fear of missing out. A quick google search will find tens of thousands of corals available. The guy from Cherry Corals replied in this thread that they frag thousands of pieces a month. And they are just one vendor. What do you think Vivid, Tidal Gardens, WWC, Unique are fragging every month? Based on the number of vendors and the amount of inventory just on the internet, there are probably hundreds of thousands of corals available. Right now there are 24,481 corals available on eBay. And you know what? I purchase corals from eBay all the time for my Granddaughters tank and my nano, pay about a 3rd. of what the same vendors want on their websites, and I'm pretty sure they're not losing money.

 

[ReeferReefer]

Actually, I was referring to The Harold who you quoted. But it doesn't matter. Since the dawn of time people have allowed themselves to be hustled because they prefer the sizzle to the steak. My original post was expressing puzzlement over hobbyists being sold on buying, (what are to me), overpriced, overhyped little pieces of coral. I just don't understand, from a market perspective, why the vendors are allowed and able to set the table. Without the hobbyist, they would not be able to sell anything.

Instead of a discussion I was told that I like to kill corals, have no understanding of the hobby, and suffer from sexual dysfunction. I am 100% sure that these are comments that would not be made to my face, but like so many things on the Internet, anonymity provides safety.

I don't care if you buy frags, don't buy frags, or turn your tank into a terrarium.

Well I agree that comments on your personal life are simply uncalled for. Like I said before, we are on the same team.

I think it just comes down to economics at the end of the day. People are willing to pay more per head if upfront cost is less. For me its a lot easier to pick up a $10 frag every month instead of a $120 colony each year. I know its silly since the money is the same, but I am sure others feel the same way.

Obviously the availability of colonies has gone down with the restrictions on collection and the higher demand for frags. I think thats what it comes down to at the end of the day. Colonies are getting harder to collect, vendors can make more money on frags and hobbiests like lower prices (even if they are smaller pieces).

I hope that offers some perspective into why I choose to buy frags. That being said I actually keep mostly sofites so most of my stuff is colonies bought from local hobbiests. As a matter of fact the vast majority of my purchases are through my local reef club, I rarely go to the LFS these days. I think the days of the LFS are numbered.

 

[reefwiser]

We are not going to be able to frag as many corals to cover the loss of coral collection from the ocean.

 

[VR28man]

Although I really love how no one cares about the state of the reef where all of these corals originally came from. They only care that the corals got more expensive. We need to get sustainable and we need to do it now before our hobby is gone for good.

Worldwide, coral reefs are definitely in worse shape than they were say 100 years ago, due partially to climate change (I've seen this with my own eyes on a particular reef) but also more generally due to massive human development in that time without regard for the health of the on-land or oceanic environment (e.g. nutrient runoff and sedimentation) and sometimes destructive food-fishing practices. Many areas - particulary where there's dense or high amounts of human life (Indonesia, Philippines, some parts of Fiji), and where overfishing for local and foreign dinner tables, the export of live fish for aquariums, and to be slaughtered and cooked restaurants in Asia (yes - the export of live fish to restaurants supposedly exceeds the value of live fish for aquaria by several multiples) - have poor coral coverage and are overfished.

However, there are still plenty of corals in the wild. Some small reefs which alone could cover the entire worldwide frag demand.
https://pacificeastaquaculture.com/...he-solomon-islands/the-ladies-of-marau-part-5

In Marau Sound there is a vast array of Acropora, as many as you could imagine and so many you could look in every direction and see solid corals for as far as you can see in the clear waters. There are enough corals in this one location to supply the worldwide reef hobby for 20 or more years! There was no signs of bleaching or other problems. On these secluded islands of Marau Sound live our coral farmers, the ladies of Marau Sound.

The laborious work by the skilled local divers and their care and attention to detail was inspiring and appreciated as they constantly thought about quality and getting their prized collections to us alive and healthy.

Further, colorful corals are only a small percentage of the corals available. The vast majority of the corals are not of the right species, or are not colorful enough, to warrant warrant collection. The most common corals in the world, Porites lobata and Pocillopora eyoudxi, are completely absent in the aquarium hobby. (and are not colorful - and no I'm not talking about Pocillopora damicornis - certain color variants are common in the hobby, though very rare in the wild since most of them have a sort of whitish or brownish color. http://www.coralsoftheworld.org/species_factsheets/species_factsheet_images/pocillopora-damicornis/ )

It takes far money time, money and effort to supply an aquaculture frag than a wild caught and chopped frag. Unless customers are willing to pay more for an aquaculture frag we will continue to harvest from the ocean until nothing is left, have any of you watched chasing corals on Netflix? It might already be to late, our reefs are dying and our hobby is on the line. If you don’t support fragging and aquaculture then you are just as bad as the people pulling everything out of the oceans unsustainably.

I'm sorry, this makes no sense. This may have been true years ago when there were lots of corals that could be harvested near major airports in shallow waters. But when you start adding in diving for corals (like our collectors in the Solomons do in the quote above), in places quite far from national distribution centers, the cost goes way up.

There are several ways of getting corals to someone in the US:

1. Collecting them in the wild wherever you can, getting them to a local country distributor facility near a major airport, flying them to a US distributor generally in LA, getting them to the LFS and then to the customer. This of course has the greatest chance of casualties.
2. Cultivating species that are known to sell well in the ocean near the local country's major airport, and then getting them to LA, etc. (as an aside, coral farms for local restoration can do this on the side. Apparently a lot of the Australian market is supplied by such farms in Australia)
3. Cultivating species that are known to sell well in a large facility on the shore, which pumps NSW into their greenhoused tanks daily to minimize light and water change costs. (I believe there are several facilities like this in Australia and a few in the U.S., most notably ORA). This and option #2 are far and away the most efficient, distribution-wise. However, they do need to be replenished with seed stock every so often.(some facilities are inland enough they must use ASW, or must use artificial lights for their zoas/LPS and greenhouses for their SPS and clams. Pacific East Aquaculture is one such place)
4. Cultivating species known to sell well using all artificial lighting and saltwater. This is the least efficient, but potentially the closest to the customer, and easiest to scale. AquaSD in San Diego I believe is a large example. Your average LFS is another example. A number of hobby-business side jobs are also generally smaller examples of this. (though some hobbyist frag tanks are bigger than some LFS' I've been too!!!)

I'll go out on a limb and say it's far more practical to commercially cultivate and sell zoas and softies in captivity than to collect and export wild-caught zoas/softies to the end user (again, especially since not every variety is colorful - thus the existence of so-called "trash zoas").

I'd say the same thing about some of the more common, commercially viable, cheap hard corals - the commonly found variants of Pocillopora damicornis, Favites pentagona (war coral being very one common variant), Favias, Monti cap, etc. These grow fast, well, and easily in captivity without too much fuss.

It's when you get to things like Acroporas that you start to find areas where wild collection is more viable, since they're often finickier.

But I can think of at least two scenarios where this is not the case: First is high priced frags from relatively small vendors. If we talking about a premium acro, say a Walt Disney, it's far easier to get one in a marketable color, grow it and frag it occasionally for $100, while it's practically impossible to go and find something with the same colors under actinic in the wild.

Second, some acros - e.g. Red Planet A. anthocercis or hyacinthus- I'd bet are still easy and cheaper to cultivate in captivity versus collecting and exporting marketable Acros of the same species from the Solomon islands, Sulawesi, or even maybe Cebu. I'd imagine ORA has several separate troughs in a greenhouse with several large Red Planet colonies they they constantly frag from.

Where wild collection has its place is where you need to keep up breeder stock, where you want nice but not great colored coral colonies, or you're looking for something nice to frag among dozens of collected corals. I don't think the later is a very good model, personally, but I know people still do it.

 

[NickCage007]

I think you must also keep in mind, 10 years ago, colonies were the way to go. Frags had terrible live to die ratios. But, with advances in the hobby, lighting, pumps, programmable flow patterns, I could go on and on, but you get the point, we are now able to keep those frags alive. So, some of us find it rewarding to "grow your own" so to speak. And now, I have big, beautiful colonies, worth hundreds if not thousands, (for some of the rare stuff) that I grew myself, from frags $100 and under. It's just a changed hobby in many ways. Aquaculture and sustainability have come along way. Just my two cents, and dumb opinion. Lol. Happy reefin

 

[vetteguy53081]

The price of frags have climbed since the ban from Indonesia to whereas many cannot afford a colony.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I think “every” post is an exaggeration. Perhaps look at my post history?

But I don’t like how the poster is trying to speak for everyone, including me. “Why do we....”. Hence the tone- because I certainly do NOT group myself with that line of thought.

I don’t want to buy colonies taken from reefs. I’d rather buy a single head, and grow it myself into a colony.

I myself like colonies and will buy them from individuals who have them as grow out, which are used to captive conditions

 

[vetteguy53081]

You will notice also, many resellers are carrying less and less colonies as opposed to a few years ago

 

[sghera64]

It’s been a long time since my last Econ course. But the answer to the OP’s question seems to be an elastic market for common corals (supply and demand set the price in a free market). It appears to be an inelastic market for “rare” or special corals - sort of like rare diamonds.

 

[Biokabe]

Good post, but you've gotta be fair here. It goes both ways.

Store owners want to maximize their profits, customers want to minimize profits (i.e. buy it at cost). Both of these are natural and defensible goals. But you only defend the shop owners' goals; why? This is an endless and inevitable dance between buyers and sellers. Neither side is right or wrong, but pretending one side is acting nobly and one side is acting selfishly is silly. Both sides are acting out of greed.

The appropriate price for anything is a compromise: more than the buyer wants to pay but less than the seller wants to make. Given a fair market with enough transparency, prices will over time reach this compromise point.

I have nothing against frags. Frags are great, for many reasons already discussed in this thread. My only problem is with frags that cost more than $20.

I defend the shop owner's goals for a simple reason; this entire thread was started on the premise that shop owners are greedily exploiting hobbyists by primarily selling frags, and naive reefkeepers are allowing themselves to be fleeced by buying frags. There's been plenty of defending of the customer's goals in this thread - we all want corals for less than we currently pay for them! But frankly, being dismayed at the price of coral is a losing battle. Don't like the price? Don't buy it. No one is forced to buy frags, colonies or anything else in this hobby. Hobbyist goods are not a need, like food, health care or housing. And however much I might want to buy a Homewrecker frag for $75, the fact remains that there's someone out there who's willing to pay $750 for that same frag. Why should the shop owner feel obligated to sell that coral for less than he could get out of it? Yes, shop owners want to make as much as they can. And shoppers want to pay as little as they can. As you say, both are natural and defensible, yet most of the frag-complainers talk as if it's only the shopkeeper's greed that prevents frags from going to whatever they feel is the appropriate price. In fact, it's the hobbyists themselves who have driven the price up.

If people weren't buying those Homewrecker frags at $750/ea, then they wouldn't exist. Price would come down, some percentage of farmers would decide it wasn't worth the effort, and we'd have fewer corals to buy. But regardless of what you feel a coral frag is worth ("No more than $20"), enough buyers disagree with you to keep the price above that, especially for more desirable specimens. Your own refusal to spend more than $20 on a frag does play into the price of frags - there's a booming market for budget frags. No-name acropora, common zoas, leather corals, xenia, GSP, some acan color morphs, some lobos, favia, war corals, some chalices - there's no shortage of corals to be had, and plenty of them are quite beautiful. But there are also plenty of corals that command a higher price for whatever reason, and I don't see why people complain about their prices. It's like complaining about the existence of $10,000 suits while buying a $50 suit from the bargain rack.