Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[mfrumkin]

I want to know how your LFS stays in business. The margin on dry goods in this business is so low, there is no way he can afford to just sell those. Most store owners who are successful do it through coral and fish.

Also - with blastos I will pay 225 for a 20 head colony. These guys are hardy and i know i can keep them. But what about acros? If I buy a $50 head and kill it, I’m out $50. If I buy a colony at $400 and kill it, I’m out 8 times as much.

I do agree that the attrition rate on frags is bad. But I also told my girlfriend that if you can’t take a $100, watch it burn, and be ok, then this is a rough hobby to be in. I don’t mean that in the sense that it’s only for the ultra rich, but that you have to understand you are going to have loses.

My LFS stays in business by:

A. providing service and maintenance. Most of his clients are NOT DIY. I am not DIY, I do some minor service myself, but do not have the time, inclination, or skill to set up ROI systems, Apex systems, or do water changes myself. I have tried but have not been successful at it. It is easier and less frustrating for me to hire someone to do it.

B. The LFS has been in the same location for at least 50 years. I used to go there as a teenager, I'm 65 now, and the current owner worked there after school. He has developed long term relationships with the neighborhood, is well known, and trusted. He has created a loyal customer base. Case in point: I recently ordered a waterbox 30.2 AIO for my office. I could have ordered it directly from waterbox but I chose to order it from the LFS so he could make some money. The same with the Nyos Viper, and Duett ATO. I know he gets them at a slight wholesale from Marine Depot and I'd rather see him make a little bit. He also stands 100% behind everything he sells.
There have also been times when he has told me he can't compete on an item and sent me to Amazon or Marine Depot.

C. He sells a lot of tanks and equipment in addition to livestock. Yes, his inventory of corals has decreased. He told me that the wholesaler he bought colonies from is now offering mostly frags. He does have connections because of his longevity and he does get wholesalers who will put aside larger pieces for him, but not as often as in the past.

I do buy frags, but I try to be selective. I have 6 zoas coming in tomorrow. They are all the same species and all supposed to be 10+ heads. If they are as described I will take them off the discs and put them together on one rock and hope to grow a colony. Some things he can't get so I have to buy elsewhere. The nano tank is going in my office and will primarily be RFA, zoas, and shrooms. Through research, I have found a couple of excellent online vendors for RFA. If I want acans and my LFS doesn't have what I want I'll go to Austin Aqua Farms. I have purchased from them in the past and trust them.

"But what about acros? If I buy a $50 head and kill it, I’m out $50. If I buy a colony at $400 and kill it, I’m out 8 times as much."

Excellent point and the reason I stopped buying acros. I'll admit it. I can't keep them alive for any period of time in my tank regardless of size. So I just don't buy them. Fortunately, there are many other corals I like better that are easier to take care of.

Yesterday I stopped by 2 aquarium stores I used to go to in Culver City. Both have stopped carrying corals. A rather well-known store in Studio City has gone from 4 coral tanks to 1. I live in Los Angeles, so I should have many, many options, but those options are shrinking.

At this point, when I am done restocking my 180gl and finished my nano I am probably done.

As far as bans go: Indonesia is a corrupt gov't. 2 years from now the gov't changes hands, the right palms get greased, and imports start back up. There is a lot of money on the table, it just has to get to the right hands. I also think the whole frag business is on a bubble. So MANY people offering the same items I think the supply will soon outstrip the demand. As supply goes up more people will refuse to pay $100 for a 3 head frag. Google zoanthids for sale and you get 10 pages of the same species and variety. And I wonder how many new hobbyists will be turned off when they don't read the fine print and find out they are only getting 3 polyps for $200, not the actual colony in the photo and oh yeah the photos have been "juiced" with creative lighting and filters.

 

[mfrumkin]

It’s like saying all cars are way too expensive and using the price of a new Ferrari as the evidence.

No, it is not like that at all. It is more like saying "I am going to pay a Ferrari price for my Fiat and then tell everyone how happy I am to do it."

 

[ReeferReefer]

It is much easier to walk out with a $20 purchase than a $250 one. As mentioned before, lower risk as well.

 

[that Reef Guy]

When I started in this hobby 15+ years ago I would go to my LFS and purchase nice sized colonies/corals at reasonable prices.

About 2 weeks ago I gave my Granddaughter about half the corals in my 180gl to stock the 50gl tank I had given her. So I went out looking for new pieces to stock my tank. 95% of everything is little bitty frags on plugs at inflated prices. I am of the opinion and experience that buying frags, for the most part, is a sucker's game. The attrition rate is horrible. Yet most hobbyists continue to purchase frags because that is what is available. But why is that the only game in town? If we, as buyers, stopped buying overpriced frags the retailers would be forced to reduce the price or increase the size. Here is an example: I went to my LFS and asked if he could get me a nice Blasto colony, (BTW 4 heads on a plug IS NOT a colony), and he took me over to his display tank and told me I could buy one of the 2 colonies he had. About 20 heads for $225. He then took me to his frag tank and showed me the same heads at $60 each and he has a constant turnover of them. I asked him why people would pay $60 a head and he told me that is what hobbyists have become conditioned to buying.

He has a handful of old-time customers like me who he tries to find bigger pieces for, but most people prefer to buy frags. There is another well known LFS near me who has basically stopped selling corals because he told me selling frags is just ripping his customers off and he doesn't need the money that bad.

So someone explain to me? What is the fascination with buying frags?

What is wrong with Frags?

You say it is a suckers game?

You say Frags Die?

I only buy Frags.

I have no issues.

If you are Killing Frags it is because you are Doing Something Wrong.

 

[that Reef Guy]

When I started in this hobby 15+ years ago I would go to my LFS and purchase nice sized colonies/corals at reasonable prices.

About 2 weeks ago I gave my Granddaughter about half the corals in my 180gl to stock the 50gl tank I had given her. So I went out looking for new pieces to stock my tank. 95% of everything is little bitty frags on plugs at inflated prices. I am of the opinion and experience that buying frags, for the most part, is a sucker's game. The attrition rate is horrible. Yet most hobbyists continue to purchase frags because that is what is available. But why is that the only game in town? If we, as buyers, stopped buying overpriced frags the retailers would be forced to reduce the price or increase the size. Here is an example: I went to my LFS and asked if he could get me a nice Blasto colony, (BTW 4 heads on a plug IS NOT a colony), and he took me over to his display tank and told me I could buy one of the 2 colonies he had. About 20 heads for $225. He then took me to his frag tank and showed me the same heads at $60 each and he has a constant turnover of them. I asked him why people would pay $60 a head and he told me that is what hobbyists have become conditioned to buying.

He has a handful of old-time customers like me who he tries to find bigger pieces for, but most people prefer to buy frags. There is another well known LFS near me who has basically stopped selling corals because he told me selling frags is just ripping his customers off and he doesn't need the money that bad.

So someone explain to me? What is the fascination with buying frags?

People prefer Frags for a Variety of Reasons.

#1 It is Cheaper
#2 Some people don't have large Tanks and don't want room taken up.
#3 Some people say they like to watch the Little Frags Grow.
#4 Variety - Lets say you have $100 to spend (You can buy one bigger Colony for $100 or 5 $20 Frags). Then you have more Coral and More Variety.

I don't see why you are Complaining.

If you do not like Frags then don't buy them.

There are Colonies for Sale.

Most people Prefer Frags these Days though Hence why there are so Many.

Nothing Wrong with that.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Why are you so concerned with what other people are buying?

Perhaps you prefer colonies ripped out of the ocean. I like aquacultured frags. It’s much more sustainable, especially with the way things are headed.

Don’t like it? “We” made our choice.

Excellent Point.

 

[Jon Fishman]

You’ll make your money back eventually if you’re doing things right. Charge market value for your frags, called supply and demand

I give stuff away if I don’t want it....... you keep up that hustle though young G

 

[that Reef Guy]

Conservation... I like to buy frags because most have been grown from other frags. Secondly, a frag that stays healthy and grows well seems to have adapted well to aquarium life/environment. Better yet, I like to buy frags from fellow reefers as theirs are likely the healthiest (if they are thriving obviously). I also like to buy captive bred fish when possible as well for pretty much the same reasons.

So True.

Maybe the OP is buying Frags of Stuff Just pulled from the Ocean and Killing them.

Or Buying Fresh Cuts.

You need to know what you are Buying.

The Ocean is nothing like a Tank.

Corals Home Grown in Tanks are much more likely to live because they are used to Aquarium Life and Not Just Pulled from the Ocean.

Times have changed.

The OP Needs to understand that.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Did you know Indo is closed and about 80% of the corals in the trade used to come from there? Now there is $200-$1000 colonies from Australia or Vietnam zoa rocks covered in pests. That's about it for colonies.

Frags are a good way to get diversity and aquacultured corals. Not sure why you say the attrition rate is horrible, we make thousands of frags a month and only lose a small percentage. We keep them until they are healed up and growing before offering them for sale.

Yep.

Know where they are coming from.

Buy Frags from Reputable Sources that take care of their Coral and Don't Sell Fresh Cuts.

I always prefer to buy Aquaculture from People like Cherry Corals that know what they are Doing and Sell a Healthy Coral.

The Ban is another Problem.

I bought a Coral Seven Years ago at a Frag Swap for $20 (That same $20 Coral is now $600 now due to the Indonesian Ban).

So the Ban Does not Help any.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

We are 8 pages deep, so not sure if anyone is still reading this thread, but here is my $.02. Back in the day we killed colonies like that was our goal. We have definitely improved our ability to keep corals alive. Also the aquacultured corals are significantly hardier in our tanks than the wild colonies. However the prices and sizes have taken an insane turn. I feel a lot of people paying inflated prices for >1" or 1 poly frags are newer to reefing. We all know the largest number of people getting out of the hobby have been reefing for less than 12 months. Unless it is free, I do not acquire 1 polyp of anything, even in perfect conditions it can just spontaneously die. I feel there is an online frag bubble that will eventually burst. People will get tired of buying an online frag with a picture that is melting their corneas and receive a brown colored coral.

 

[mfrumkin]

People prefer Frags for a Variety of Reasons.

#1 It is Cheaper
#2 Some people don't have large Tanks and don't want room taken up.
#3 Some people say they like to watch the Little Frags Grow.
#4 Variety - Lets say you have $100 to spend (You can buy one bigger Colony for $100 or 5 $20 Frags). Then you have more Coral and More Variety.

I don't see why you are Complaining.

If you do not like Frags then don't buy them.

There are Colonies for Sale.

Most people Prefer Frags these Days though Hence why there are so Many.

Nothing Wrong with that.

Once again you misconstrue my post. I'm not complaining I'm questioning. If you read my posts you'll see I do buy frags, I am just highly selective. I also have a 180gl tank. A few weeks ago I foolishly ordered some frags. Despite the advertisement, they were not, IMO, WYSIWYG. Instead of putting them in my frag rack, (again my mistake), I glued them into the tank. They looked nearly invisible. And then of course during the night my clean up crew knocked a number of them into holes and crevices.

I completely understand why frags are preferable in a nano tank.

"#4 Variety - Lets say you have $100 to spend (You can buy one bigger Colony for $100 or 5 $20 Frags). Then you have more Coral and More Variety."

I prefer quality over quantity.

"There are Colonies for Sale."

Really? Send me some links.

"Most people Prefer Frags these Days though Hence why there are so Many."

Do you really believe that? If you do I'm sorry but you have no real clear understanding of how market forces work.

 

[mfrumkin]

So True.

Maybe the OP is buying Frags of Stuff Just pulled from the Ocean and Killing them.

Or Buying Fresh Cuts.

You need to know what you are Buying.

The Ocean is nothing like a Tank.

Corals Home Grown in Tanks are much more likely to live because they are used to Aquarium Life and Not Just Pulled from the Ocean.

Times have changed.

The OP Needs to understand that.

LOL!! I only have 40 years experience in freshwater, cichlid, FOWLR, and reef tank experience, so I have no REAL understanding of how things work. Does Cherry Coral pay you to shill for them or do you do it for free? BTW, I have probably GIVEN AWAY more coral than you have ever purchased.

 

[bluprntguy]

"There are Colonies for Sale."

Really? Send me some links.

Divers Den WYSIWYG literally five minutes ago (and frankly, the prices are pretty reasonable IMO):

 

[eggplantparrot]

Do you really believe that? If you do I'm sorry but you have no real clear understanding of how market forces work.

I definitely believe that myself, as I see it myself. my LFS has had the same tank full of Acan colonies for the past 4-5 months. they range from super colorful 'ultra' to 'B' grade and literally 1 or 2 have been sold whereas their frags tank right beside it always has frags of more or less the same Acans that get eaten up by the shoppers

 

[ReeferReefer]

LOL!! I only have 40 years experience in freshwater, cichlid, FOWLR, and reef tank experience, so I have no REAL understanding of how things work. Does Cherry Coral pay you to shill for them or do you do it for free? BTW, I have probably GIVEN AWAY more coral than you have ever purchased.

Perhaps you have all the experience you say you have, but it seems a bit rude to talk that way. Especially coming from someone with 50 posts, talking to someone with almost 10k posts. @that Reef Guy is a well respected contributor in this community.

It just gets bothers me when people say things like "I have probably GIVEN AWAY more coral than you have ever purchased." There is no way to quantify that and its really just used to try to shut down any meaningful conversation.

 

[Silver14SS]

Doing something for a long time is not proof of anything other than persistence. I'm glad you're proud of your experience, but as @bluprntguy posted above, the statements that colonies aren't available appears to be incorrect.

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

Divers Den WYSIWYG literally five minutes ago (and frankly, the prices are pretty reasonable IMO):

Shhhhh!!!

 

[GrumpyAlison]

I'm broke af and it's easier for me to buy a few cheap frags than a huge colony. Also none of my tanks are big enough for enormous colonies
Plus if they're duncans, they usually go from 1 -> 6 heads in about 4 months for me anyway so I'm not super concerned with sourcing big colonies XD

To each their own, but I do think it's kind of insane how the prices seem to devalue super aggressively the more heads the thing has. Like the op mentioned a 20 head blasto colony goes for 12.5/head and a single head goes for 4x that much. Not in love with that, but I usually just lurk around for stuff I'd qualify as reasonably priced and snag it when I see it.

 

[FO_Reef]

A few on this thread have implied this explanation, but to be more explicit about it, there's a very good reason why people buy frags instead of colonies. And while that reason isn't logical, it is very much human nature.

Specifically, it's about total expenditure for an item rather than a price-for-value equation. I would guess that the majority of individuals would choose a $60 1" frag over a $250 colony of that same coral even though the colony is 10X as large as the frag.

I see this all the time at the grocery store with meat purchases. I will be mulling over the $8/lb special for a whole tenderloin - total expenditure about $80, and someone will walk up next to me, glance at the whole tenderloin total price, then choose the filet mignon right next to it for $20 per pound. I'd guess that most of these folks know that filet mignon steak is cut from tenderloin, and all they have to do to get 7 or 8 filet mignons is buy the whole tenderloin, slice it to their desired thickness, and freeze what they don't want to eat right away. The reason they do it is quite simple - the package of filet mignon steaks costs a total of $20, and they'd have to spend $80 to get the whole tenderloin.

Same thing with frags instead of colonies - it's just simple psychology.

The problem with this analogy is that the dead piece of meat will never grow into a bigger dead piece of meat. If I spend $60 on the frag, it will eventually grow into the $250 colony (provided it survives long enough).

 

[shred5]

Two reasons, first inflation, a gallon of gas cost less than $2 twenty years ago. Second demand, there are a lot more people in the hobby now then there was 20 years ago. I personally like small frags. I can watch them grow and it leads to more coral diversity in smaller tanks. Each person has to decide for themselves whats to much to pay.

That is uncalled for. No matter what he said.
at least you changed part of it.