Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[Jay Z]

I bought full colonies for my display tank. I wanted big pieces for it. To me a display tank is not a bunch of frags scattered around the bottom. Unless the whole things full.

I frag my own colonies most of the time for my smaller tanks.

I won’t buy from vendors on this site just because of the money they ask and 50% and 30% off sales throw up a red flag to me.

I have bought from members on this site and products were excellent. I also have 1 person on eBay I buy from, their stock is phenomenal and prices are really good and one local lfs that gets some really nice standard run of the mill colonies.

I do appreciate the fancy coral and nem pics people post on this site but I want my tanks to look more natural then carnival. I like the look of natural rocks and critters everywhere doing thing and some color here and there.

Now new equipment, I have no problem buying that.

 

[Budannaman]

You’ll make your money back eventually if you’re doing things right. Charge market value for your frags, called supply and demand

 

[vetteguy53081]

Don't like in some cases buying frags, but colonies can be Very expensive or unaffordable.

 

[Gribbliest]

In my opinion, the biggest problem in the USA is mail order. It kills the LFS.

I moved here a few years ago from the UK, and my old LFS still has many large colonies for sale. Mail order isn't really a thing there, and they are able to get their colonies from the wholesaler.

I personally will not buy mail order livestock. I prefer to support my LFS. In return, I am pretty sure I get preferential pricing.

I also avoid mail order for dry goods where possible. If we all bought those from our lfs rather than brs or md, etc, the lfs might be able to charge less for livestock.

Sorry, that was off topic.

I have to say that I personally like frags. I'm enjoying watching my colonies grow. I have many that started as 1" or 2" frags that I am now having to cut back to keep under control.

There appears to be an appetite for frags in the USA. My friends in the UK COMPLAIN that they don't really get that choice!

On the subject of taking from the ocean or aquaculture not being the point, I feel it kinda is. If you want an aquacultured colony, then it's going to be expensive. How much money has gone into water, salt, supplements, electricity for heating/cooling/lighting/flow??

Anyway, I'm done rambling from thought to thought. Just know I'll be supporting my lfs and believe we all should - and that it is my opinion that doing so would improve things no end!

 

[LARedstickreefer]

I buy frags because colonies cost too much. Simple as that.

 

[Jay Z]

You’ll make your money back eventually if you’re doing things right. Charge market value for your frags, called supply and demand

Or give them to people just starting out or are less fortunate then you.

It’s a sad life chasing the paper bill.

 

[PirateDan]

I too dislike the current trend - seems to me people call their tanks display tanks for no reason at all.

Back in the days (not that long ago really) things were labeled "show size" or "display piece"

Most people today dont have display tanks, they are simply mislabeled frag tanks.

 

[road_runner]

I used to buy large pieces, but as time went by I started enjoying getting frags and grow them to colonies. Learned and still learning about how coral grow and their patterns against flow light and some parameters.
I found it to be diffrent kind of challenge that have me joy..

 

[Jared's Little Reef]

I am calling all my nano frag tanks in the future display tanks

 

[HawaiianReef]

Just my opinion, and I dont have a problem buying corals because I love some beautiful ones that are pretty cheap. And not all corals are expensive.
But it seems the "custom" grafted corals, and hard to keep corals.
It seems that if the corals are grafted there more rare and there's more work in building them than just making them grow.
Same goes for the sensitive, hard to keep corals. If they are more sensitive, the farms have to dedicate more to making them thrive. Then take the chances on shipping.
But the Golden Torch going upwards of 10 times the value in months.. Thats just ridiculous.

 

[road_runner]

Just my opinion, and I dont have a problem buying corals because I love some beautiful ones that are pretty cheap. And not all corals are expensive.
But it seems the "custom" grafted corals, and hard to keep corals.
It seems that if the corals are grafted there more rare and there's more work in building them than just making them grow.
Same goes for the sensitive, hard to keep corals. If they are more sensitive, the farms have to dedicate more to making them thrive. Then take the chances on shipping.
But the Golden Torch going upwards of 10 times the value in months.. Thats just ridiculous.

Couldnot agree more. These torches used to be 50 70$ a head. Now its 400$ a head. It is ridiculous.

 

[Jared's Little Reef]

At the end of the day if someone is willing to pay an insane price for a coral that's up to them. It's the same for designer clown fish that cost $600 for a pair of "super unique" types. I think it's a bit crazy but hell if you want to spend your money that way go for it! And enjoy it

 

[grove2nmb]

Good Evening, I typically don't respond to these threads and just read them over. But I feel like this would be a good time to add to the discussion. I own and operate a coral farm. We offer aquacultured corals as well as wilds. The market over the past several years has changed significantly. Prior to the bans and restrictions being put in place the frag market had already began to explode. Colonies was the name of the game for years but slowly over time the consumer began to gravitate towards frags. Why I truly do not know. Colonies would sit and frags would sell. This was not only locally but at frag swaps. We would bring 120 colonies marked at $65-$100 for very nice pieces and initially would sell out at shows, over time no one would even look at the colonies. Frags became the main source of sales and colonies steadily declined. So the business had to adapt and change to accommodate the majority of our customers. Throw in the bans and restrictions it absolutely did alter the market. Colonies are still out there but nowhere near the prices that they once had been. As a reference gold torches just last year I retailed for $150-$180 for a single large head or two smaller heads. Today I can't even get one head at wholesale for that price or it has other buying commitments that come along with it. So the entire industry has changed. From the initial suppliers all the way to the end retailer. We strive to offer high quality fully healed frags at reasonable pricing, most average between $25-$35. Some are more and some are less, the majority are grown in our facility. If it is a wild that has been cut up it has been in our possession for several months prior to ever being cut and then it will sit for several more weeks to heal before sale. This may seem as a sales pitch but it is necessary information, yes these corals are grown in house but it is not free. A large number of man hours go into maintaining and caring for the corals. Not to mention the costs of equipment, salt, foods, dosing materials, testing supplies, water, electric, internet, insurance, taxes, site fees, rent, shipping supplies, losses, fragging material, blades, so on and so forth. Yes the pieces may be smaller but the the costs to run these facilities are very large. We occasionally offer large colonies for sale. These are wilds that we either do not want to cut up for their beauty or do not feel it to be advantageous. We recently posted an social media a true show size Duncan colony over one foot across and over 120 heads. Several asked the price but no sale and it is still sitting. We received several texts and emails to cut a frag of it, frags with 3-4 heads go for $30 or about $7.50 a head. This entire colonies price is $450 with a price per head of $3.75. Economically you are getting a better deal on the colony but large colonies just simply do not sell like they did. Today vendors have to search out the right buyer for colonies which means they are sitting on them with zero return on investment. While frags of the same colony will sell and usually sell well. While talking with our customers they share the same feelings as many have stated. They like to have diversity in their aquariums and also less financial risk if they have a frag go down. I will not comment on what other vendors do as for pricing as that is their business and every businesses financials are different. As far as frag sizes go, we have experimented with it. When we cut larger pieces which do cost more due to time invested in growing it they tend to sit also. So we try try to offer pieces in 3/4" to 1" size for SPS and acans have 3-6 heads as an example. This size class seems to be what a majority of our customers are looking for. I hope this sheds some light on the inner workings a bit from a vendors perspective.

 

[tehmadreefer]

When I started in this hobby 15+ years ago I would go to my LFS and purchase nice sized colonies/corals at reasonable prices.

About 2 weeks ago I gave my Granddaughter about half the corals in my 180gl to stock the 50gl tank I had given her. So I went out looking for new pieces to stock my tank. 95% of everything is little bitty frags on plugs at inflated prices. I am of the opinion and experience that buying frags, for the most part, is a sucker's game. The attrition rate is horrible. Yet most hobbyists continue to purchase frags because that is what is available. But why is that the only game in town? If we, as buyers, stopped buying overpriced frags the retailers would be forced to reduce the price or increase the size. Here is an example: I went to my LFS and asked if he could get me a nice Blasto colony, (BTW 4 heads on a plug IS NOT a colony), and he took me over to his display tank and told me I could buy one of the 2 colonies he had. About 20 heads for $225. He then took me to his frag tank and showed me the same heads at $60 each and he has a constant turnover of them. I asked him why people would pay $60 a head and he told me that is what hobbyists have become conditioned to buying.

He has a handful of old-time customers like me who he tries to find bigger pieces for, but most people prefer to buy frags. There is another well known LFS near me who has basically stopped selling corals because he told me selling frags is just ripping his customers off and he doesn't need the money that bad.

So someone explain to me? What is the fascination with buying frags?

Because noobies dont know any better, dont know what is what like back in the day and frags are all they know. Its very difficult to find colonies these days since everyone chops em up to try and get rich...

 

[Doctorgori]

Frags are kinda aquatic pokemon cards.....and so what....the dollars generated are positive energy and positive economics...would we rather they sell for 25 cents?
I always say its worth 200 if someone pays it... personally I stay under $40 as I could care less if its a jolly rancher incrediblesuperman/spiderman zoa

 

[NS Mike D]

In my opinion, the biggest problem in the USA is mail order. It kills the LFS.

I moved here a few years ago from the UK, and my old LFS still has many large colonies for sale. Mail order isn't really a thing there, and they are able to get their colonies from the wholesaler.

I personally will not buy mail order livestock. I prefer to support my LFS. In return, I am pretty sure I get preferential pricing.

I also avoid mail order for dry goods where possible. If we all bought those from our lfs rather than brs or md, etc, the lfs might be able to charge less for livestock.

Sorry, that was off topic.

I have to say that I personally like frags. I'm enjoying watching my colonies grow. I have many that started as 1" or 2" frags that I am now having to cut back to keep under control.

There appears to be an appetite for frags in the USA. My friends in the UK COMPLAIN that they don't really get that choice!

On the subject of taking from the ocean or aquaculture not being the point, I feel it kinda is. If you want an aquacultured colony, then it's going to be expensive. How much money has gone into water, salt, supplements, electricity for heating/cooling/lighting/flow??

Anyway, I'm done rambling from thought to thought. Just know I'll be supporting my lfs and believe we all should - and that it is my opinion that doing so would improve things no end!

I disagree with regard to mail order and corals. The online seller is at a disadvantage from the the LFS as the online seller had huge shipping cost per order. (of course no one is stopping the LFS to sell online if its so much better). The big box reef section with PETCO is a failure.

It takes so much time effort and space for an LFS to dedicate and the market demand is very limited relative to retail space for other business , like the freshwater/local pet store, that the online retailers are able to fill the demand in locations where the cost of individual shipping overcomes the inconvenience of long drives to a LFS (which may not be so local).


Here on Long Island, in one of the most densely populated regions in the country, where in a 5 minute drive radius, I can get gas from 5 stations, food and other things from 3 supermarkets, 6 delis and 6 7-elevens, 2 Home Depots, a Target a Walmart etc, I have to drive 40 minutes in ether direction to go to an LFS that carries corals (which I do) . Note that I will pass about 20 pets stores along the way.

While demand is driving up the price of frags, paradoxically, it's the lack of demand (and thus lack of truly local LFS) that is enabling he online retailer to over come the insanely (relative to price) cost of shipping livestock.

 

[ZoWhat]

Inflated corals prices are due to:

* Third world countries/governments being difficult....making certain corals/fish rarer than it needs to be

* Shipping and fuel costs double what they were 15yrs ago

* Too many vendors along the supply change. every time a coral changes hands the wholesale price DOUBLES

* Greedy final sellers giving everything a MARKETING name that spurs a buying hypes, overpricing hype.

* Consumers are paying the higher prices. the sellers are getting what the market will yield.


Welcome to a World further dividing into the "Haves" and the "Have Nots"
.

 

[Luna]

I think frags started out as a way to spread corals to other reefer without taking a bunch out the ocean. I also think that it was a way to let reefers buy a nice coral for a smaller price. The problem is everything has gotten to be just about getting as much money as people can for anything. Examples are circulation pumps. I bought one for $20 & it works perfectly fine, had for many many years & if it breaks I can buy another for $20. It’s not really fancy with magnets but it works . Then you have others that are $300 & probably isn’t much better than mine. It sucks, but that’s what it is. If people can afford spending the extra $$ than good for them, but as for myself I only look for deals. I’m sure my family can find ways to help me spend my extra $$.

 

[Diznaster]

NOW, I will say. There's a difference between a fully encrusted frag and a freshly cut piece...
I am absolutely sick of seeing "frags" that have not yet fully healed or are just barely stuck to the frag plug.

IMO, frags should be grown out some before they are offered for sale.


Not all frags are created equal.

That's a very good point! I might be in an outlier, but I would love to buy small fresh cuttings at a lower price. I find frag plugs ugly and the diameter is too large to adapt to a contoured surface. I usually cut the frag off the plug and glue it to my rock anyways. I figure it should be cheaper because the farmer didn't need to buy a plug or occupy tank space for a month+, but yeah I have seen both for equal pricing and that seems like BS. A friend gave me a couple fresh SPS cuttings recently, I glued them right on my rock and they are doing great

As it relates to the OP question. I'm stocking a newish 90gal with a good bit of rock surface. I like the idea of adding smaller pieces with a greater variety and look forward to watching them blend together over time. I don't need the latest and greatest (can't afford it either). What seems odd to me is that something cool, that was hot 5yrs ago is still $80+. Maybe demand is that much greater than supply, but sometimes we trim these things because they are growing out too much. Why hasn't supply caught up?

Maybe we should work out a network for sharing frags or fresh cuttings (if there isn't one already). Somewhat like the torrent system, where people are rated as seeders or leechers. The goal is to expand distribution. I have no desire to make money selling frags or cuttings, but I would love to share them. If I could get a cool fresh cutting for shipping cost, then after a few months share a cutting for shipping cost the karma would be even. If I shared a second cutting I would be in the plus on karma. If everyone did that we would have more people sharing and the population of the species would grow exponentially. It's probably a pipe dream, but it sounds like a better hobby that way.

 

[James w Lewis]

Basically it’s the only way to get any decent looking stuff but I pay 10 times more now for a frag than I used to pay for a colony. Even hobbyists selling frags are off the hook now days. They still want 300 for a piece of Walt Disney acro that has been around for years