Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[CMO]

I prefer frags to colonies since they give a much more natural appearance when grown in.

 

[Peach02]

When I started in this hobby 15+ years ago I would go to my LFS and purchase nice sized colonies/corals at reasonable prices.

About 2 weeks ago I gave my Granddaughter about half the corals in my 180gl to stock the 50gl tank I had given her. So I went out looking for new pieces to stock my tank. 95% of everything is little bitty frags on plugs at inflated prices. I am of the opinion and experience that buying frags, for the most part, is a sucker's game. The attrition rate is horrible. Yet most hobbyists continue to purchase frags because that is what is available. But why is that the only game in town? If we, as buyers, stopped buying overpriced frags the retailers would be forced to reduce the price or increase the size. Here is an example: I went to my LFS and asked if he could get me a nice Blasto colony, (BTW 4 heads on a plug IS NOT a colony), and he took me over to his display tank and told me I could buy one of the 2 colonies he had. About 20 heads for $225. He then took me to his frag tank and showed me the same heads at $60 each and he has a constant turnover of them. I asked him why people would pay $60 a head and he told me that is what hobbyists have become conditioned to buying.

He has a handful of old-time customers like me who he tries to find bigger pieces for, but most people prefer to buy frags. There is another well known LFS near me who has basically stopped selling corals because he told me selling frags is just ripping his customers off and he doesn't need the money that bad.

So someone explain to me? What is the fascination with buying frags?

alot of people like to see them grow out or have the ability to say , I grew this from a frag and a lot of LFS's are forced to inflate prices due to the low amount of money flowing through the hobby

 

[Docjpath]

In my opinion, the biggest problem in the USA is mail order. It kills the LFS.

I moved here a few years ago from the UK, and my old LFS still has many large colonies for sale. Mail order isn't really a thing there, and they are able to get their colonies from the wholesaler.

I personally will not buy mail order livestock. I prefer to support my LFS. In return, I am pretty sure I get preferential pricing.

I also avoid mail order for dry goods where possible. If we all bought those from our lfs rather than brs or md, etc, the lfs might be able to charge less for livestock.

Sorry, that was off topic.

I have to say that I personally like frags. I'm enjoying watching my colonies grow. I have many that started as 1" or 2" frags that I am now having to cut back to keep under control.

There appears to be an appetite for frags in the USA. My friends in the UK COMPLAIN that they don't really get that choice!

On the subject of taking from the ocean or aquaculture not being the point, I feel it kinda is. If you want an aquacultured colony, then it's going to be expensive. How much money has gone into water, salt, supplements, electricity for heating/cooling/lighting/flow??

Anyway, I'm done rambling from thought to thought. Just know I'll be supporting my lfs and believe we all should - and that it is my opinion that doing so would improve things no end!

I disagree with regard to mail order and corals. The online seller is at a disadvantage from the the LFS as the online seller had huge shipping cost per order. (of course no one is stopping the LFS to sell online if its so much better). The big box reef section with PETCO is a failure.

It takes so much time effort and space for an LFS to dedicate and the market demand is very limited relative to retail space for other business , like the freshwater/local pet store, that the online retailers are able to fill the demand in locations where the cost of individual shipping overcomes the inconvenience of long drives to a LFS (which may not be so local).


Here on Long Island, in one of the most densely populated regions in the country, where in a 5 minute drive radius, I can get gas from 5 stations, food and other things from 3 supermarkets, 6 delis and 6 7-elevens, 2 Home Depots, a Target a Walmart etc, I have to drive 40 minutes in ether direction to go to an LFS that carries corals (which I do) . Note that I will pass about 20 pets stores along the way.

While demand is driving up the price of frags, paradoxically, it's the lack of demand (and thus lack of truly local LFS) that is enabling he online retailer to over come the insanely (relative to price) cost of shipping livestock.

Just to add another perspective, quality LFS are not always available nor are local reef clubs. I have to drive 70 miles just to get to a LFS that sells corals and I live in area of around 250000 people. Its probably because it is a college town and students spend money on education, food and booze and not corals. The online supplier that I use keeps at least one partial day for walk-ins, which is a real plus. They also have both frags and large pieces that would qualify as colonies. So I do not agree that online retailers have ruined the US market, they are simply supplying a quality product that is meeting consumer demands. I also find some of the LFS in larger cities charge ridiculous prices for corals as well, probably because they know someone will buy it for convenience. So I am going to a thumbs up to quality online vendors!

 

[bluprntguy]

I think the discussion here is the high cost of tiny frags.....not where they were wild caught or not. I think most of us on here agree we would rather buy aquacultured over wild caught. I personally suspect the LFS is also to blame for fragging a colony into little 1/2 inch frags and selling it for exorbitant prices. I know a lot of us have seen it lately. As far as my money I am very choosey now, and wait until there is a piece I really want, instead of heading to the LFS once a week to see what they have. That 250.00 per head of torch coral I told you guys about in my earlier post.....he fragged it into one head per frag plug.....he sold all 6 frags in two hours last Saturday. To 6 different customers!!!!!

I guess it's easy to complain that everything costs too much. I also freely admit that I live in San Francisco, and the cost of living here clouds my judgement for these types of things. If you live somewhere with a rational cost of living, I can understand that frags probably seem too expensive comparatively.

However, if you factor in the time for someone to grow out a colony, electricity for running lights, dosing, water changes, boxing, shipping, etc, it doesn't seem like frags really cost too much to me. $50 - $75 for a nice SPS frag seems pretty darn reasonable. That's pretty much what I tend to spend. Someday I may drop $200 on a frag of Walt Disney or Homewrecker, when I'm more sure that it will live in my system.

 

[Inkedup1977]

Just got into the hobby a few months ago and I'll have to say my wife really likes that I buy frags because she gets to watch me glue it to my fingers a minimum of 3 times before I actually get it placed where I want it

 

[NS Mike D]

Good Evening, I typically don't respond to these threads and just read them over. But I feel like this would be a good time to add to the discussion. I own and operate a coral farm. We offer aquacultured corals as well as wilds. The market over the past several years has changed significantly. Prior to the bans and restrictions being put in place the frag market had already began to explode. Colonies was the name of the game for years but slowly over time the consumer began to gravitate towards frags. Why I truly do not know. Colonies would sit and frags would sell. This was not only locally but at frag swaps. We would bring 120 colonies marked at $65-$100 for very nice pieces and initially would sell out at shows, over time no one would even look at the colonies. Frags became the main source of sales and colonies steadily declined. So the business had to adapt and change to accommodate the majority of our customers. Throw in the bans and restrictions it absolutely did alter the market. Colonies are still out there but nowhere near the prices that they once had been. As a reference gold torches just last year I retailed for $150-$180 for a single large head or two smaller heads. Today I can't even get one head at wholesale for that price or it has other buying commitments that come along with it. So the entire industry has changed. From the initial suppliers all the way to the end retailer. We strive to offer high quality fully healed frags at reasonable pricing, most average between $25-$35. Some are more and some are less, the majority are grown in our facility. If it is a wild that has been cut up it has been in our possession for several months prior to ever being cut and then it will sit for several more weeks to heal before sale. This may seem as a sales pitch but it is necessary information, yes these corals are grown in house but it is not free. A large number of man hours go into maintaining and caring for the corals. Not to mention the costs of equipment, salt, foods, dosing materials, testing supplies, water, electric, internet, insurance, taxes, site fees, rent, shipping supplies, losses, fragging material, blades, so on and so forth. Yes the pieces may be smaller but the the costs to run these facilities are very large. We occasionally offer large colonies for sale. These are wilds that we either do not want to cut up for their beauty or do not feel it to be advantageous. We recently posted an social media a true show size Duncan colony over one foot across and over 120 heads. Several asked the price but no sale and it is still sitting. We received several texts and emails to cut a frag of it, frags with 3-4 heads go for $30 or about $7.50 a head. This entire colonies price is $450 with a price per head of $3.75. Economically you are getting a better deal on the colony but large colonies just simply do not sell like they did. Today vendors have to search out the right buyer for colonies which means they are sitting on them with zero return on investment. While frags of the same colony will sell and usually sell well. While talking with our customers they share the same feelings as many have stated. They like to have diversity in their aquariums and also less financial risk if they have a frag go down. I will not comment on what other vendors do as for pricing as that is their business and every businesses financials are different. As far as frag sizes go, we have experimented with it. When we cut larger pieces which do cost more due to time invested in growing it they tend to sit also. So we try try to offer pieces in 3/4" to 1" size for SPS and acans have 3-6 heads as an example. This size class seems to be what a majority of our customers are looking for. I hope this sheds some light on the inner workings a bit from a vendors perspective.

thank you for sharing.


as for colonies, they are a bigger commitment. Someone posted that they'd rather by a frag than take the risk of losing a colony. Also, large colonies are just too big for many tanks, especially with the explosion of the "nano" tanks. Anything bigger than a softball would not look good in my 29gal tank and a large colony would severely limit what I could add to the tank.

Not so long ago, you had to have a tank 100+gallons, and thus needed colonies to fill that space. I would speculate that the rapid popularity of smaller tanks and the nanos has contributed to the demand for smaller corals, as would the explosion of the variety of corals available.

I also think technology (internet, lighting and digital photography) has created unrealistic expectations making these frags look better that what they will look like in the average hobbyists tank, and thus contributing to the higher prices. Lol, I have some sps, that I have to grab my phone to better see those beautiful polyps as my naked eye just isn't as good as my iphone lens,

 

[Fercho]

I heard or read somewhere, a while back, that the reason why corals went up in price was because the vendors started getting greedy, taking advantage of the exotic, colorful, beauty of the corals.
Because they saw the hype of the hobby and the potential of selling “designer” (who the hell designs corals anyways) pieces and making a good buck out of it.

THEN......the local people who hand picked corals for a miserable pay found out the vendors where making lots of money for the corals and of course, wanted a piece of the pie too, then vendors raised their prices even more because now, they had to afford those people’s wages, bringing the hobby expensiveness to where it is now.

$100 dolla for a 1” frag is ridiculous.

 

[Silver14SS]

All of the "back in the day" comments make me think of Abe Simpson. Times and prices change, nostalgia makes stuff sound a lot better than it actually was.

 

[VR28man]

I prefer colonies myself. That being said, the economics of selling frags is way better. Getting a frag is supposedly lower risk than getting a colony as well, but I have yet to really find that the case.

And for those who want colonies, they are still available. You have to ask your LFS. I've also bought from these folks:

https://www.liveaquaria.com/divers-den/category/2/sps-corals

And to address a related claim that came out in this forum: completely wild corals can be collected perfectly sustainably. Even in seasons/years when harvestability is down, many areas have cultivate-in-the-ocean areas and there's no reason the locals shouldn't make a bit of money selling them. (I think that's pretty common in Australia, for what it's worth).

 

[Sarah24!]

There are a few posts in this thread alone that 100% disprove your statement there my friend. Just because there is a market for expensive frags doesn't mean there aren't beautiful corals that have become so common to aquaculture that we take them for granted, even treat them like garden weeds.

Be careful about siting outliers in the marketplace and use them as an example to blanket statement the hobby.

Hello,

In all do out most professionalism, please explain to me how a medium income family to lower income family which now a days is 32,000 (here in Idaho), can afford corals that are an inch tall and not even guaranteed to life? Please outline for me which posts 100% prove me wrong? As some philosophers would say, one persons weeds are another persons dream come true. It’s all in perspective of the individual. Maybe I’m from mars because I don’t buy something unless I have the money already for it. (Wait lol) like my parents charge everything on their American Express literally everything you can think of. Then pay the entire bill at the end of the month when due. I’m not trying to say or tell people how to spend their money it’s theirs have fun. All I’m saying is, that today’s society doesn’t help middle or lower class very much. It would just be nice to see something where anyone can enjoy its beauty and be a part of. Again speaking professionally (not directed to any one person, vendor, cartoon, etc). But even where I work we use salt water tanks because they calm patients down, children they help a lot medically. But when patients ask about prices it depresses them because they can’t afford one, because prices are so high. Is that fair, if any one was said patient, what would your response be? I shop lfs because they are much cheaper and larger. With that said I don’t get fancy names like home wrecker or whatever the new hype is. But my reef looks gorgeous with normal corals. No names no idea what it is and most people don’t have it. Which in sense makes my tank unique. Again not saying if someone has 10,000 and that money is extra do what you please. But for those who do work hard, barely feed their families, can’t enjoy these. As a point of fact a person (sorry privacy aka hippa) came to my place of work for (blank). The one thing that calmed them down was a reef. Counselors are using them to help with mental issues. This person has since left where I work, but comes every few days and watches and stares at the tank in the main (blank). Said person has been doing this for months. I have spoken to them numerous times they have to pick which bill to pay. In their case, they make ends meet but not enough to enjoy a reef, not alone a sps stick pack for 4500. They have a hard time spending 40 on most things. But I would like to see the proof you claim to have simply for research purposes only.

 

[NS Mike D]

Basically it’s the only way to get any decent looking **** but I pay 10 times more now for a frag than I used to pay for a colony. Even hobbyists selling frags are off the ****** hook now days. They still want 300 for a piece of Walt Disney acro that has been around for years

then why isn't there anyone growing WD and selling them for $30 piece. What aren't you? You can make a fortune, we Sam Walmart of the coral market place? Certainly, you don't think all these sellers formed a covert cartel?

 

[Silver14SS]

Hello,

In all do out most professionalism, please explain to me how a medium income family to lower income family which now a days is 32,000 (here in Idaho), can afford corals that are an inch tall and not even guaranteed to life?

By buying inexpensive corals or participating in a hobby within their means? Most LFS start corals at $10-20, there's tons of budget threads on this forum. Nobody is owed the opportunity to have a reef tank, this entire hobby is a huge and expensive luxury.

You can golf with a used set of clubs that cost $20, or you can spend thousands on a set of custom clubs. There's people who enjoy both approaches, neither is right or wrong.

 

[bluprntguy]

NOW, I will say. There's a difference between a fully encrusted frag and a freshly cut piece...
I am absolutely sick of seeing "frags" that have not yet fully healed or are just barely stuck to the frag plug.

IMO, frags should be grown out some before they are offered for sale.

Not all frags are created equal.

I actually prefer freshly cut frags. Frankly, I'd prefer if they cut the frag and shipped it without any plug. I always take the plugs off my frags the day after I get them and put new ones on. I don't want some aiptasia/ich/bryopsis infected plug in my tank! I've never had an issue with a frag dying because it was "freshly cut".

 

[427HISS]

My wife and I started out in the 90's and handful colonies were say $40ea, we sold out in 2000 to pursue other hobbies. We returned 4 years ago, and we were SHOCKED, at the prices of equipment and,...frags. $60 (+++) for one small head ? We almost did not start again because of it. There is NO reason that small corals cost this much, not only LFS but from other hobbyist!

We heard about a local club, so we attended their "frag swap" at a couples house. We were really excited, until we looked at their prices, most were about what the LFS costs, some higher ! What type of a "club and frag swap" is that ?!!!
Some of these group clubs rent out a section or basements of church's, VFW's etc., set up booths and sell frags and equipment,, the big problem is, someday they'll get buster for not have a business license. Personally, I'll never turn them in, as we still like looking, learning and conversations. It's not fair to LFS as they have to have licenses, pay for the building, taxes, personal, on & on etc. You know,.....

To us, we were looking to meet fellow reefers and have great conversations and either pay a lower cost for corals or,...."swap". All went wonderful except on the pricing. We've talked about starting our own club and all members must, sell at reasonable lower prices or an actual swap, trade or even give corals with everyone. To us, that's how clubs should be.

 

[NS Mike D]

Hello,

In all do out most professionalism, please explain to me how a medium income family to lower income family which now a days is 32,000 (here in Idaho), can afford corals that are an inch tall and not even guaranteed to life? Please outline for me which posts 100% prove me wrong? As some philosophers would say, one persons weeds are another persons dream come true. It’s all in perspective of the individual. Maybe I’m from mars because I don’t buy something unless I have the money already for it. (Wait lol) like my parents charge everything on their American Express literally everything you can think of. Then pay the entire bill at the end of the month when due. I’m not trying to say or tell people how to spend their money it’s theirs have fun. All I’m saying is, that today’s society doesn’t help middle or lower class very much. It would just be nice to see something where anyone can enjoy its beauty and be a part of. Again speaking professionally (not directed to any one person, vendor, cartoon, etc). But even where I work we use salt water tanks because they calm patients down, children they help a lot medically. But when patients ask about prices it depresses them because they can’t afford one, because prices are so high. Is that fair, if any one was said patient, what would your response be? I shop lfs because they are much cheaper and larger. With that said I don’t get fancy names like home wrecker or whatever the new hype is. But my reef looks gorgeous with normal corals. No names no idea what it is and most people don’t have it. Which in sense makes my tank unique. Again not saying if someone has 10,000 and that money is extra do what you please. But for those who do work hard, barely feed their families, can’t enjoy these. As a point of fact a person (sorry privacy aka hippa) came to my place of work for (blank). The one thing that calmed them down was a reef. Counselors are using them to help with mental issues. This person has since left where I work, but comes every few days and watches and stares at the tank in the main (blank). Said person has been doing this for months. I have spoken to them numerous times they have to pick which bill to pay. In their case, they make ends meet but not enough to enjoy a reef, not alone a sps stick pack for 4500. They have a hard time spending 40 on most things. But I would like to see the proof you claim to have simply for research purposes only.

I have a tank stocked with corals that ran me $5 - $20 a frag. I am a bargain hunter when it comes to my tank. I have very nice corals softies, lps and sps. My local reef club has tables full of donated frags every month they we auction off and you can pick up nice size frags with an reasonable budget. I have gotten to know a number of local sellers who are eager to put a nice pack of 5 - 6 corals for $100 since I am willing to wait and let them pick the corals for me. There are three or four posts (you are free to read them yourself) who said they too get their corals in that price range.

No one is forced to buy expensive corals to stock their tanks There are options if one wanted corals that don't require sacrificing the milk money.

I am not going to address the rest of your post as it has nothing to do with whether or not healthy corals are available at reasonable prices.

 

[Jon M.]

Simple cost vs risk for me. I will not shell out over $100 for any piece of coral as they all have an equal chance of dying. I also like watching them grow and knowing I helped do that.

 

[Medic58]

I was thinking the same thing. Slow down dude.

...Every post you make is so harsh. Why so rude all the time?

 

[NS Mike D]

I heard or read somewhere, a while back, that the reason why corals went up in price was because the vendors started getting greedy, taking advantage of the exotic, colorful, beauty of the corals.
Because they saw the hype of the hobby and the potential of selling “designer” (who the hell designs corals anyways) pieces and making a good buck out of it.

THEN......the local people who hand picked corals for a miserable pay found out the vendors where making lots of money for the corals and of course, wanted a piece of the pie too, then vendors raised their prices even more because now, they had to afford those people’s wages, bringing the hobby expensiveness to where it is now.

$100 dolla for a 1” frag is ridiculous.

in the long run, supply and demand will settle at a price just above a small margin above costs. Do we really not like people who sell goods and services (including their time) at what the the demand is willing to pay?

Do we throw economics out the window and pretend that if good margins are to be had, that new suppliers won't enter the market and drive prices down (via the additional supply)?


For all the homeowners who think sellers are charging too much, when you sell, if the agent told you the market was higher than what you think you house was worth, would you tell the agent to list it at the lower price you thought it was worth or would you the agent lust it at the market price?

 

[Gribbliest]

Inflated corals prices are due to:

* Third world countries/governments being difficult....making certain corals/fish rarer than it needs to be
.

Not just 3rd world. Take a look at the Achilles Tangs for sale to eat in Hawaii at $5 a lb or whatever they charge, yet they ban them for live export...

 

[Gribbliest]

I disagree with regard to mail order and corals. The online seller is at a disadvantage from the the LFS as the online seller had huge shipping cost per order. (of course no one is stopping the LFS to sell online if its so much better). The big box reef section with PETCO is a failure.

It takes so much time effort and space for an LFS to dedicate and the market demand is very limited relative to retail space for other business , like the freshwater/local pet store, that the online retailers are able to fill the demand in locations where the cost of individual shipping overcomes the inconvenience of long drives to a LFS (which may not be so local).


Here on Long Island, in one of the most densely populated regions in the country, where in a 5 minute drive radius, I can get gas from 5 stations, food and other things from 3 supermarkets, 6 delis and 6 7-elevens, 2 Home Depots, a Target a Walmart etc, I have to drive 40 minutes in ether direction to go to an LFS that carries corals (which I do) . Note that I will pass about 20 pets stores along the way.

While demand is driving up the price of frags, paradoxically, it's the lack of demand (and thus lack of truly local LFS) that is enabling he online retailer to over come the insanely (relative to price) cost of shipping livestock.

Well, I'm just sharing my experiences. Support your lfs for dry goods rather than saving pennies at BRS, and maybe they can afford lower prices. Maybe there'd be more of them too.

Take a look on FB at reefdreams in the UK. They have amazing dry goods, and amazing livestock.

I drive 30 mins each way to my lfs - I'm fortunate to be near ARS in Malvern PA.