Why folks don’t like adding nutrients

[Mark Novack]

What are inorganic nutrients? Perhaps I only thought that I understood. I'm sure that I only thought that I understood. I got confused between elemental and molecular.

 

[sixty_reefer]

What are inorganic nutrients? Perhaps I only thought that I understood. I'm sure that I only thought that I understood. I got confused between elemental and molecular.

The main difference is that organic nutrients contain a carbon atom and inorganic nutrients won’t have the the carbon atom.


ex. Amino acids contain a carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen atoms, making amino acids a organic nutrient on the other hand Nitrates won’t have the carbon atom making it a inorganic nutrient.

 

[Mark Novack]

Another question. Is an algae reactor counter productive in relation to this?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Another question. Is an algae reactor counter productive in relation to this?

In my view it depends greatly on several important aspects of a system, a young system can benefit greatly from a algae bed to outcompete other photosynthetic nuisances that can utilise this nutrients and take hold in a system otherwise.
Wile a system matures there’s not many beneficial organisms that can utilise this nutrient some get lucky and are able to develop coraline algae from the beginning aiding the management of excess organic nutrients.
later in the live of a reef aquarium, coral, coraline and microbial diversity will take over and manage those nutrients more efficiently without the need for a algae reactor to help managing those nutrients.
In conclusion as there is many other factors that will influence organic nutrient management, we need to interpret our system and determine what can be beneficial for each stage. Some only look at macro algaes as a method to lower inorganic nutrient, I look at it slightly further.

 

[LeftyReefer]

In my view no.
They contain nitrogen atoms


Those ingredients that you mentioned above on they’re own won’t lower nutrients as they are sources of nitrogen. You may need to take in consideration that most amino acids sold in the hobby contain carbohydrates and they contain sugars and starches that will lower nutrients. AB+ for example contains carbohydrates and you may have heard of some folks having Cyanobacteria blooming after dosing amino acids the reason for that is the nitrogen content that some nuisance algae and bacteria can assimilate during photosynthesis.

But the bottle seems to indicate that at least the acidic (acetic?) acid is in fact a carbon source??


Ingredients: USP Aspartic acid, USP Glutumic acid, other proprietary ingredients including acidic acid as a preservative and carbon source.

Which I guess makes sense, since Acetic acid is the main ingredient in vinegar.

 

[MnFish1]

The main difference is that organic nutrients contain a carbon atom and inorganic nutrients won’t have the the carbon atom.


ex. Amino acids contain a carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen atoms, making amino acids a organic nutrient on the other hand Nitrates won’t have the carbon atom making it a inorganic nutrient.

This is not correct.

For example - bicarbonate is 'inorganic carbon'. as is 'carbon dioxide'.

Inorganic compounds are chemical compounds that lack carbon-hydrogen bonds. Organic compounds are carbon-based compounds that are primarily made of carbon and hydrogen.

EDIT (this is from a definition of what is an inorganic carbon material - it does not describe all organic compounds)

 

[MnFish1]

@sixty_reefer said: "In my view no. They contain nitrogen atoms". (concerning Glutamate, Aspartate and Acetic Acid)

This is partially incorrect as well. Acetate/acetic acid does not contain Nitrogen - and I would consider it similar to vodka. Glutamate and aspartate are amino acids - and are somewhat different - but are also considered sources of Carbon and Nitrogen.

The definition of an inorganic compound does not necessarily mean they do not contain nitrogen for example - HCN (Cyanide) - is an inorganic compound. Additionally, ammonia, nitrate, nitrate are also 'inorganic'. The key is there needs to be a covalent bond between Carbon and another of the molecules.

I don't want to criticize you - but when discussing things - precision is important

 

[djf91]

In my view it depends greatly on several important aspects of a system, a young system can benefit greatly from a algae bed to outcompete other photosynthetic nuisances that can utilise this nutrients and take hold in a system otherwise.
Wile a system matures there’s not many beneficial organisms that can utilise this nutrient some get lucky and are able to develop coraline algae from the beginning aiding the management of excess organic nutrients.
later in the live of a reef aquarium, coral, coraline and microbial diversity will take over and manage those nutrients more efficiently without the need for a algae reactor to help managing those nutrients.
In conclusion as there is many other factors that will influence organic nutrient management, we need to interpret our system and determine what can be beneficial for each stage. Some only look at macro algaes as a method to lower inorganic nutrient, I look at it slightly further.

Yep this is where I’m at right now. Started with dry rock and it’s been a long battle maturing the system. Finally beat hair algae and cyano in the display and took my algae turf scrubber offline and a month later now here comes back all of the uglies in the display.

 

[MnFish1]

In my view no.
They contain nitrogen atoms

Since a couple people have asked, acetic acid does not contain Nitrogen.

The main difference is that organic nutrients contain a carbon atom and inorganic nutrients won’t have the the carbon atom.

Inorganic compounds (which could be considered nutrients) - like bicarbonate, CO2 are inorganic.

Which I guess makes sense, since Acetic acid is the main ingredient in vinegar.

Correct - acetic acid is vinegar.

 

[MnFish1]

What are inorganic nutrients? Perhaps I only thought that I understood. I'm sure that I only thought that I understood. I got confused between elemental and molecular.

There are several definitions of 'inorganic nutrients'. For example - Iodine could be considered an inorganic nutrient.

Elemental means a single atom - Like Carbon, or Oxygen. "An element is a substance that cannot be broken down into any other substance. There are about 100 elements, each with its own type of atom. Everything in the universe contains the atoms of at least one or more elements. The periodic table lists all the known elements, grouping together those with similar properties."

A molecule is a combination of 'elements'. Like CO2. the stricter definition is "The smallest particle of a substance that has all of the physical and chemical properties of that substance. Molecules are made up of one or more atoms. If they contain more than one atom, the atoms can be the same (an oxygen molecule has two oxygen atoms) or different (a water molecule has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom). Biological molecules, such as proteins and DNA, can be made up of many thousands of atoms."

Atoms, Molecules, and Compounds | manoa.hawaii.edu/ExploringOurFluidEarth

manoa.hawaii.edu

 

[sixty_reefer]

@sixty_reefer said: "In my view no. They contain nitrogen atoms". (concerning Glutamate, Aspartate and Acetic Acid)

This is partially incorrect as well. Acetate/acetic acid does not contain Nitrogen - and I would consider it similar to vodka. Glutamate and aspartate are amino acids - and are somewhat different - but are also considered sources of Carbon and Nitrogen.

The definition of an inorganic compound does not necessarily mean they do not contain nitrogen for example - HCN (Cyanide) - is an inorganic compound. Additionally, ammonia, nitrate, nitrate are also 'inorganic'. The key is there needs to be a covalent bond between Carbon and another of the molecules.

I don't want to criticize you - but when discussing things - precision is important

I take all criticism with open arms, it means that the discussion is moving forward and in the right direction as more folks are getting involved, the reason I don’t consider a carbon source on that particular question was that was aimed at discussing a particular product ingredient and acetic acid was only used as a preservative. Not the main ingredient, the impact on nutrients would be very minimal if any.
As to my reference to the difference between organic and inorganic nutrients I say “most” organic nutrients contain a carbon atom to try and simplify as you mentioned there is exceptions to the rule.
We also need to take in consideration that we are discussing nutrients and they are different from compounds, would you consider bicarbonate a nutrient?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I do understand the difference between elemental and organic nutrients. I don't understand dosing carbon and nitrate and phosphate together. I see that one can raise the levels but why carbon at the same time? Or am I not understanding it? I also don't know the symptoms of too low nutrients. Too high and urchins drop dead. But they don't like too high raw organics either.

Not many people dose all of these, but one potential reason to do so is to generate bacterial food for filter feeders.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

As to my reference to the difference between organic and inorganic nutrients I say “most” organic nutrients contain a carbon atom to try and simplify as you mentioned there is exceptions to the rule.
We also need to take in consideration that we are discussing nutrients and they are different from compounds, would you consider bicarbonate a nutrient?

There is no exception to the rule that ALL organics must contain carbon and hydrogen.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I've thought about the OP's original question for a while now. I think I understand where he is coming from. To me, the nutrients being discussed are: 1) Nitrogen; 2) Phosphate; and 3) Organic Carbon.

I would much prefer to feed fish in order provide the proper forms of nutrients to the other organisms and processes in the system. However, where that is not happening, I see no reason why adding a solution designed to raise one particular nutrient wouldn't be prudent. I think this is particularly true in newer systems where nitrate, and to a lessor extent phosphate, is concerned due to the threat of Dinos.

 

[sixty_reefer]

But the bottle seems to indicate that at least the acidic (acetic?) acid is in fact a carbon source??


Ingredients: USP Aspartic acid, USP Glutumic acid, other proprietary ingredients including acidic acid as a preservative and carbon source.

Which I guess makes sense, since Acetic acid is the main ingredient in vinegar.

It is although I believe it’s being used as a preservative, does it gives you the percentage or chemical analysis on this product?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yep this is where I’m at right now. Started with dry rock and it’s been a long battle maturing the system. Finally beat hair algae and cyano in the display and took my algae turf scrubber offline and a month later now here comes back all of the uglies in the display.

During the initial years there is always some sort of nuisance due to this, that’s why coralline algae is so desirable if she’s dominating a system there is less undesirable taking advantages of the empty space.

 

[MnFish1]

I take all criticism with open arms, it means that the discussion is moving forward and in the right direction as more folks are getting involved, the reason I don’t consider a carbon source on that particular question was that was aimed at discussing a particular product ingredient and acetic acid was only used as a preservative. Not the main ingredient, the impact on nutrients would be very minimal if any.
As to my reference to the difference between organic and inorganic nutrients I say “most” organic nutrients contain a carbon atom to try and simplify as you mentioned there is exceptions to the rule.
We also need to take in consideration that we are discussing nutrients and they are different from compounds, would you consider bicarbonate a nutrient?

Yes Bicarbonate I would consider a nutrient. I believe you had stated that acetate contained 'nitrogen' - which is incorrect. In any case - acetic acid and acetate are both nutrients, and an 'organic' compound. Which is the point I was trying to make.

"acetic acid (CH3COOH), also called ethanoic acid, the most important of the carboxylic acids. A dilute (approximately 5 percent by volume) solution of acetic acid produced by fermentation and oxidation of natural carbohydrates is called vinegar; a salt, ester, or acylal of acetic acid is called acetate."

This distinction - organic and inorganic is unclear in the title of the thread (you are talking about dosing nutrients) - and for example Iodine is a 'nutrient'. You then narrowed it down to C, N and P - which as far as I know - are not dosed by very many aquarists. Then it becomes kind of a muddle - because there are so many variations of nutrients containing varying amounts of C N and P. Thus - IMHO - the answer to your question is 'personal preference'.

 

[MnFish1]

@sixty_reefer @Randy Holmes-Farley is one of the authors of this article.

Reefkeeping Magazine - Vinegar Dosing Methodology for the Marine Aquarium

Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for the marine aquarist.

reefkeeping.com

 

[sixty_reefer]

@sixty_reefer @Randy Holmes-Farley is one of the authors of this article.

Reefkeeping Magazine - Vinegar Dosing Methodology for the Marine Aquarium

Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for the marine aquarist.

reefkeeping.com

It can’t be it mentions a ratio of 16:1 nitrates to phosphates reduction wile carbon dosing

 

[LeftyReefer]

It is although I believe it’s being used as a preservative, does it gives you the percentage or chemical analysis on this product?

No, it does not. What I posted is what is listed under ingredients. no percentages listed.
But it says right on the bottle "used as a preservative and carbon source"

So there must be enough of it that they consider it more than just a preservative.

I've been dosing this product for months... thinking it was aminos, and by dosing them, I would be adding nutrients to the tank. Hasn't worked. My tank still bounces off zeros.

I've been dosing live phyto for months too.... also thinking it would be adding to my nutrients. hasn't worked. my tank still bounces off zeros.

Turns out, these things are probably working against me and may in fact be lowering my nutrients rather than adding to them???

Guess I'm going back to just dosing Nitrates via ESV calcium nitrate and see if it's easier to maintain a low level of nitrates, rather than constantly bouncing them off zero. Regardless, it will be cheaper.