Wrasses, tangs and Copper

[skyrne_isk]

I am about to pull a couple tangs and a sargassum trigger out of a "quarantine reef" that I put new additions into as the tangs have some ich dusting and now the trigger does too. To complicate matters, I just got a pair of earmuff wrasses in yesterday that went into the same acclimation system.

The plan is to go with a copper treatment for a couple days (in an actual bare bottom QT tank), which will likely kill most of the ich on the tangs and trigger, then the plan is for hypo will keep anything that has encysted from hatching. But what are everyone's thoughts on the wrasses? From what I've read, coppersafe is one of the better options for wrasses - but I only intend to run copper for a couple days as I transition to hyposalinity, I don't feel good running copper on anything for very long. I followed this plan on some clowns that had velvet a few months ago - and this was after formalin based treatments did next to nothing. However, the clowns refused eating while copper was in the system - doesn't make me feel good about the impact of copper on the tangs. Even more so on the new wrasses - I don't plan to move them at all until they start eating.

The tangs I have had for a couple weeks, both are eating fine along with the trigger. If it matters - the tangs are TINY - like maybe 1.5" tiny. One is a hepatus, one acanthurus.

So a couple questions:

1. Anyone treated sensitive halichoeres with coppersafe?
2. What about hyposalinity?
3. Are small tangs sensitive to copper or hyposalinity?

Even though neither wrasses are sick, you better believe both are going to get treated somehow (or be stuck in this acclimation system for many months) before they go into the display.

I've had plenty of touchy wrasses for many years, but oddly enough have never treated them with meds (or actually had any become sick). So I don't have any idea how the medication route will go - but since they are in a system that definitely has ich, I need to get a treatment plan nailed down.

Thanks in advance!

 

[HotRocks]

I'm curious, when you treated the clowns what test kit were you using and what kind of copper?

Coppersafe is chelated copper, I prefer the other readily available chelated copper, copper power. I use the Hanna checker to monitor the level and I shoot for 2.0ppm.

A while back we found that coppersafe concentration was all over the place and some bottles had an almost fatal concentration if dosed per instructions.

Copper power is much more consistent and the Hanna checker makes using copper really easy.

I don't run into lethargic fish that won't eat in copper anymore. I have treated several wrasses this way, including sensitive leopards. It makes it a breeze. Plus several hundred other various fish from tangs, angels, gobies, etc.

I don't think I have ever lost a halichoeres to copper sensitivity.

 

[4FordFamily]

My Current QT Process

UPDATE, 10/9/22: For those looking for quarantine information, our current process is kept updated on the first page of this thread (post any questions at the end of the thread). https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/ Thanks, Jay Hemdal I am frequently...

www.reef2reef.com

This is @HotRocks and I process. I would stick with copper. Too much velvet out there and hyposalinity won’t handle velvet.

I’ve also had trouble with hypo not working.

Unfortunately earmuff wrasse are sensitive fish, but we’ve treated halichoeres in copper before.

 

[skyrne_isk]

I'm curious, when you treated the clowns what test kit were you using and what kind of copper?

Coppersafe is chelated copper, I prefer the other readily available chelated copper, copper power. I use the Hanna checker to monitor the level and I shoot for 2.0ppm.

A while back we found that coppersafe concentration was all over the place and some bottles had an almost fatal concentration if dosed per instructions.

Copper power is much more consistent and the Hanna checker makes using copper really easy.

I don't run into lethargic fish that won't eat in copper anymore. I have treated several wrasses this way, including sensitive leopards. It makes it a breeze. Plus several hundred other various fish from tangs, angels, gobies, etc.

I don't think I have ever lost a halichoeres to copper sensitivity.

Apparently I used Cupramine on the clowns, checked the bottle I still had and pretty sure I went in at half the recommended dose for three days. I didn’t run a copper test kit - was a bare bottom tank with no floss/filter of any kind. Just 90% water changes every day.

 

[saltyhog]

I have never had any problem with fish not eating or acting different with Copper Safe and using the Hanna Checker to monitor levels. I've QT'd Halichoeres, Paracheilinus and Cirrhilabrus wrasses without any problems at all. My Ear Muff went through copper without problem.

Keep an eye on the Ear Muffs going forward....they will probably both end up as males.

 

[skyrne_isk]

Yeah, I’ll bet you’re right - but since i’ve not been able to source an earmuff for several years now, and so I bought what was available when I had the chance. I do have two systems to separate if needed.

 

[skyrne_isk]

Coppersafe is chelated copper, I prefer the other readily available chelated copper, copper power. I use the Hanna checker to monitor the level and I shoot for 2.0ppm.

I'm not planning on picking up a hanna checker for this - do you know what the dosing on the copper power is to get to 2.0PPM? I have some on the way from Amazon tomorrow.

 

[skyrne_isk]

I'm not planning on picking up a hanna checker for this - do you know what the dosing on the copper power is to get to 2.0PPM? I have some on the way from Amazon tomorrow.

Looks like it's 24mL/20G = 2.0ppm for copper power. Which means the 1.0ppm initial level suggested by 4FordFamily and HotRocks is 3mL/5G. Does that sound right to you guys? I understand the ease of the Hanna checker - but I'm a math guy. So I am okay to track my dosages manually as I add water to the QT. Most of my water changes will be 100% anyway, so I can always correct as I go along.

One last question, do you guys essentially never use hypo on your additions? You're basically having a mild osmotic relief occur down to 1.018, but outside that meds are doing all the lifting yeah?

 

[Mjrenz]

Here is the info you want for copper. Also, just so you are aware copper cannot be combined with hypo, it becomes quite toxic in lower salinity

Ratios for Dosing Copper Power

I have recently been getting a few requests for how to adjust dosing with all of my research on the hanna checker and copper power being used together. Figured I would throw this up as a point of reference. For anyone using Copper Power: Bottle concentration will bring you to a Cu level of...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[HotRocks]

Here is the info you want for copper. Also, just so you are aware copper cannot be combined with hypo, it becomes quite toxic in lower salinity

Ratios for Dosing Copper Power

I have recently been getting a few requests for how to adjust dosing with all of my research on the hanna checker and copper power being used together. Figured I would throw this up as a point of reference. For anyone using Copper Power: Bottle concentration will bring you to a Cu level of...

www.reef2reef.com

This link^^ will have you covered completely. So long as you don't encounter any absorption.

 

[skyrne_isk]

Here is the info you want for copper. Also, just so you are aware copper cannot be combined with hypo, it becomes quite toxic in lower salinity

Ratios for Dosing Copper Power

I have recently been getting a few requests for how to adjust dosing with all of my research on the hanna checker and copper power being used together. Figured I would throw this up as a point of reference. For anyone using Copper Power: Bottle concentration will bring you to a Cu level of...

www.reef2reef.com

wow really? i have never heard that....

 

[saltyhog]

Looks like it's 24mL/20G = 2.0ppm for copper power. Which means the 1.0ppm initial level suggested by 4FordFamily and HotRocks is 3mL/5G. Does that sound right to you guys? I understand the ease of the Hanna checker - but I'm a math guy. So I am okay to track my dosages manually as I add water to the QT. Most of my water changes will be 100% anyway, so I can always correct as I go along.

One last question, do you guys essentially never use hypo on your additions? You're basically having a mild osmotic relief occur down to 1.018, but outside that meds are doing all the lifting yeah?

The problem with managing your dosages manually is that it means your'e assuming the concentration of the product is what it says it is and uniform from bottle to bottle. That can be a dangerous assumption and there have been some examples of that problem in the last year or two with some products. With the narrow therapeutic range of copper, that's a chance I don't want to take. For the price of a very cheap fish you can know for sure if you're therapeutic or toxic. Like @HotRocks mentioned absorption is another thing you wouldn't know if it's happening unless you test.

 

[Mjrenz]

wow really? i have never heard that....

A safe range for chelated copper, like copper power, is about 1.017 to 1.026. Ionic copper, like cupramine, is a little higher at about 1.022 to 1.026
Here's a reference if you're interested https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7576155

 

[skyrne_isk]

A safe range for chelated copper, like copper power, is about 1.017 to 1.026. Ionic copper, like cupramine, is a little higher at about 1.022 to 1.026
Here's a reference if you're interested https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7576155

super cool. the more you hang out you do learn some things. now it makes me nervous how many times i’ve used cooper w hypo in the past. probably that i generally under-dose is what’s saved me. better to be lucky than good I guess....

 

[Mjrenz]

super cool. the more you hang out you do learn some things. now it makes me nervous how many times i’ve used cooper w hypo in the past. probably that i generally under-dose is what’s saved me. better to be lucky than good I guess....

As others have said above it would be a very good idea to get the Hanna high range copper checker, the scary thing about using too little is that it can lead to resistant diseases and using too much can kill the fish. I'm glad you've been lucky so far!

 

[skyrne_isk]

so the wrasses have been out and eating for two days now. a little bit of too much lurking in the back of the tank for my liking - especially for this genus - but no signs of ich on any of the dorsal or pectoral fins. Everyone else in the tank, save the orange spotted goby, does. So tonight, the clowns and the other tang will head to hypo (1.013 right now). There is no chemical treatment of this tank so far - I want to see how hypo goes for a good 3-4 days for copper power (and yes I imagine I will have to pull the SG up to 1.018 or so)

But about the wrasses, since there are no signs of ich on them and they are eating (but still shy) what’s the thinking on leaving them in the acclimation reef? 2 days of feeding doesn’t seem like a lot - but I didn’t see them at all the first 2-3 days in this system and I don’t want to interrupt the socialization aspect of their transition. When leopards and touchy wrasses are hiding for consecutive days, that’s always been a bad sign IME (and I’m not a rule follower and will coax them out of the sand to help get their clocks dialed in). So how does this get balanced against the need for ich/parasite management? Thoughts?

 

[Mjrenz]

so the wrasses have been out and eating for two days now. a little bit of too much lurking in the back of the tank for my liking - especially for this genus - but no signs of ich on any of the dorsal or pectoral fins. Everyone else in the tank, save the orange spotted goby, does. So tonight, the clowns and the other tang will head to hypo (1.013 right now). There is no chemical treatment of this tank so far - I want to see how hypo goes for a good 3-4 days for copper power (and yes I imagine I will have to pull the SG up to 1.018 or so)

But about the wrasses, since there are no signs of ich on them and they are eating (but still shy) what’s the thinking on leaving them in the acclimation reef? 2 days of feeding doesn’t seem like a lot - but I didn’t see them at all the first 2-3 days in this system and I don’t want to interrupt the socialization aspect of their transition. When leopards and touchy wrasses are hiding for consecutive days, that’s always been a bad sign IME (and I’m not a rule follower and will coax them out of the sand to help get their clocks dialed in). So how does this get balanced against the need for ich/parasite management? Thoughts?

If the other fish have signs of ich it's almost certain that wrasse also have it. It's common that they won't show symptoms like other fish

 

[skyrne_isk]

If the other fish have signs of ich it's almost certain that wrasse also have it. It's common that they won't show symptoms like other fish

is it “won’t show symptoms even though they have it” or “won’t be as likely to be negatively effected due to the thicker mucous coat”? i’ve never observed this family of wrasse to show signs of ich. so no doubt i’m going to treat before they go the main display, but do I have time to let them continue to adjust w/o meds? i’m not excited about a copper treatment

 

[HotRocks]

If other fish that share the tank with the wrasses have ich, so do the wrasses. Their thick slime coats and or mucus cocoon (depending on genus) they sleep in help mask it. I would treat them the same as your other fish (if your goal is to maintain and ich free system) otherwise you will end up with ich in your system when you transfer them.

 

[skyrne_isk]

If other fish that share the tank with the wrasses have ich, so do the wrasses. Their thick slime coats and or mucus cocoon (depending on genus) they sleep in help mask it. I would treat them the same as your other fish (if your goal is to maintain and ich free system) otherwise you will end up with ich in your system when you transfer them.

sure. i’m with you on that one. but when? that’s what i’m hung up on. i’ve not
often had fish with ich concomitantly with newly introduced wrasse. i guess i feel best taking another good week or so and then pulling the wrasses. does that seem like a bad plan?