Wrasses, tangs and Copper

[skyrne_isk]

okay, all fish except the earmuffs are now into QT. Hypo is now in place for these fish down to 17ppt (1.012). Going to see if the ich can clear under these conditions over the next 7-10 days, if not copper power is on tap.

Have you guys who have used copper power found it to negatively impact the bio filter? I can dose amquel (but does that detoxify the copper) or microbacter if the answer to this is yes. It looks like the protocol hotrocks and 4ford described does sometimes have bacterial infections as a side effect down the road...due to coppers immunosuppressant side effects?

Here’s some eye candy for the two wrasses - so far they are eating well

Planning on taking them to treatment once I can see how the ich on my current fish responds over the next week or so - want to harden them a bit before treatment. Should help inform the necessity of copper if I don’t see a clearing.

 

[saltyhog]

Be aware the fish can look improved and have no evidence of ich even without treatment due to the life cycle of the parasite. When hyposalinity is effective (and there are reported resistant strains) it is effective when used for 30 days....7-10 is not the end point of treatment regardless of how the fish appears. This is why I've gotten away from hyposalinity and now use Copper Power/Hanna. After 10 days of therapeutic copper (plus 3 days to slowly ramp up the dose) I transfer to a sterile tank to observe for several more weeks.

 

[skyrne_isk]

Be aware the fish can look improved and have no evidence of ich even without treatment due to the life cycle of the parasite. When hyposalinity is effective (and there are reported resistant strains) it is effective when used for 30 days....7-10 is not the end point of treatment regardless of how the fish appears. This is why I've gotten away from hyposalinity and now use Copper Power/Hanna. After 10 days of therapeutic copper (plus 3 days to slowly ramp up the dose) I transfer to a sterile tank to observe for several more weeks.

how challenging is managing the bio filter/ammonia when using copper power? some broodstock clowns came in with brook, which required copper treatment to cure, but usually ich I can manage via hypo. i’ve never used copper power though, but if it doesn’t really impact biofilter then i’ll go that path.

 

[saltyhog]

It hasn't affected the bio filter at all in the tank I use for copper! One the things I like about it. CP can be broken down by the bio filter which is my main hesitancy to use it.

 

[skyrne_isk]

It hasn't affected the bio filter at all in the tank I use for copper! One the things I like about it. CP can be broken down by the bio filter which is my main hesitancy to use it.

Hey!!! Let's go then. Some of the research I have done led to some conflicting reports on this. And just to clarify, when you say CP, do you mean copper power or chloroquine phosphate? I have used copper (ionic though) many times over the years, but never on touchier fish like wrasses and the like. I've never really tested for it - just used it in conjunction w/ hypo at reduced dosage - and then I watch the fish behavior to see how it's going. Usually on clowns and/or on nasty stuff like velvet and brook (where you've got no choice, really). Glad so much knowledge is around so the learning is less painful (and expensive) than just trying it out.

 

[saltyhog]

Oops sorry....yes CP =chloroquine phosphate!

 

[skyrne_isk]

So the QT tank is 15G and currently at 1.012 SG. Yesterday the tangs and the trigger definitely had spots on them. At 8PM last night I dosed 4.5mL of copper power, which means my effective concentration is .5ppm. This morning there were no spots on anyone - and since I am below the minimum “safe range” SG for Cu I am going to keep the dose low until SG is brought back up. At a minimum I’ll document the progress for the sake of posterity.

Tonight the plan is:

8/6 Beginning Cu: 4.5mL @ 0.50ppm
H2O change of 5G: 33% reduction
New Cu concentration: 3.0mL @ 0.33ppm
Cu Additional Dose: 6.0mL
End Cu concentration 9.0mL @ 1.0ppm

 

[skyrne_isk]

Definitely still some spots on one the tangs, here is the treatment update from last night:

8/7 Beginning Cu: 9.0mL @ 1.0ppm
H2O change change 5G: 33%
New Cu: 6.0mL @ 0.66ppm
Cu Added: 3.0mL
End Cu 9.0mL @ 1.0ppm

Interestingly enough, Seachem and a few other copper medication manufacturers indicate to use half the marine dose on freshwater AND in marine hypo. I’ll have to find the link and post - but the mention was specifically the ionic availability of copper is greater with fewer “competing” ions that are found at NSW levels. Everyone is eating well, and all fish have cleared their white spots except the one tang. Will post a pic of the setup tonight. But so far so good with hypo and 1.0ppm copper.

 

[suta4242]

Interestingly enough, Seachem and a few other copper medication manufacturers indicate to use half the marine dose on freshwater AND in marine hypo.

IIRC that’s because copper toxicity increases as pH falls.

 

[skyrne_isk]

Okay, pulled the wrasses on Saturday and transferred everyone to a 40G poly tank.
Total water volume is now 30G with 18.0mL of Cu in this volume of water at 1.016 SG. Everyone is still eating, the chevron tang still has a few spots on his pectoral fins, but everyone else is clear. Will probably edge up to 1.25ppm of Cu and lower the SG down to 1.013 today. Plan will be to stay at that level for another 5 days, to allow a full ten days for any trophonts to fall off. Then the plan is to tank transfer to a new tank with true hypo-only treatment.

My assumption is that once the theronts emerge the copper will kill them in short order (ie immediately). That should only take an additional 2-3 days for all the theronts to emerge.

I have little doubt extended Cu treatment is an immunosuppressant - which is why fish can tend to end up with bacterial infections at the 30 day mark. Don't want to get anywhere near that close. So far so good, and am banking on using hypo to potentiate the copper levels for treatment.

 

[skyrne_isk]

Current update: I did a full 10 days at 1.010SG and 1.5ppm of copper. I moved the earmuffs out of the quarantine reef and into treatment about 10 days ago. Not lost a single fish - and most had a significant ich load (even the clowns, which to me is a always an indicator that there’s a significant infestation going around). The last 4-5 days have been spent bringing up the SG which is now at 1.022, but I am no longer sure of the current copper level - once I decided to end hypo incoming water was no longer dosed. So a couple weeks where hypo and copper was dosed at half strength with no ill effects. Will keep updated on any recurrence of ich. Also, can’t say enough about poly tanks. Here is the setup.