WXM Module Discontinued By Neptune Systems

[laguest]

I have an apex, 3 MP10 and the WXM module. I did PLC controls for 15+ years so I understand control and automation. Moved into IT system and application monitoring for the past 17 years so I understand how to monitor and alert on critical processes that must work 24 x 7. I like my apex but they are leaving the door wide open for others to develop a great platform that can take a huge part of their market share. My guess is 5 years from now the automation and monitoring in this space be much different

 

[dopey]

Probably not the best way to frame that up, it's an idea that's been tried time and time again, with the same results.
Think VHS and Betamax. Edison vs. Westinghouse. Why everyone needed to get a new TV or rent a cable box a few years back.
We certainly don't need more proprietary hacks of standard protocols, like 'wireless aquabus' (aquabus is just USB in form factor and protocol with non-standard voltages and max current. UPnP would be the network-based analogue, except it sucks and is insecure).

What's working today in the OT (and IT) environments are documented RESTful APIs and connectivity based on IP. Doesn't matter if the device connects over Ethernet, WiFi, LTE, 5,6, or 7G, or super-mega-aquabus v7 turbo edition, as long as it has a reachable IP address.

A controller only needs to know what keys mean what things in the real world, and what the possible range of values it can get/set. That's where vendor documentation (aka "publishing the API") comes in.

Personally, I think Red Sea is in the driver's seat here, it's pretty easy to work with. Some AI stuff has been reverse-engineered to expose APIs and modules created to allow control from any Python script. And of course, we have our own Reef-Pi to take advantage of those standards.

Mark my words, that will be the next evolution in automation. The ones that accept it will grow market share. The ones that stay a closed ecosystem will see their market share or profit margin shrink.

you definitely seem to know actual examples better than I And I do agree hacks of protocols is horrible. HDMI for example, can be a nightmare since even with a spec and universal acceptance.. it's got quirks and differences between TV sets implementation that can cause a real headache when developing a box to connect to HDMI.

On the other hand, things like DOCSIS or other standards to make broadband/mobile function, to my limited knowledge, is very well defined and followed.

I also completely agree where IT in general is heading is restful APIs, but wouldn't you agree this requires some level of higher complexity of the device/system first? I have a hard time picturing all wavemakers to have a REST Api to communicate with them, or return pumps Also, just guessing, that implies IP connectivity (wifi/wired), not sure how a REST api over bluetooth would work in practice These more individual components is where I thought a standard spec (either existing or new one defined) be best. Whether it's a protocol over bluetooth, usb, IP, etc.

Seneye for example, I assume it's propietary, but they atleast released (somewhat) the spec and a example C program. This has let folks replicate and communicate with the SUD directly. Unfortunately they haven't released the ability to change slides this way, but reading all values you can. That feels like a step in the right direction, unfortunately it's a small player with a niche device tho.

I've tried to reverse engineer my GHL doser for example. Something that is physically large enough and contains multiple ways of connecting (Wireless/wired IP, USB). From best I can tell using wireshark I think instead of implementing any sort of API over IP, it's just transported their original USB protocol over IP... which makes me think practically it's going to be a challenge for them to move to a fully rest API based solution if even in their application they are still using another protocol.

Unfortunately dont' really see any of this happening. Partly due to the built in legacy of the devices. If companies started with a USB/BT propietary protocol, even if they moderinze their end user GUI it can still mean a massive overhaul 'deeper down' to try and offer something more open/standard (either standard spec or a rich restful api). So often it's much easier for them to maintain their original protocols and just focus on end user experience, hiding away the complexity.


.......and this desire for access and manipulation is really a very small part of an already very small market

......and I do agree eventually, companies which have an open/accessible platform will prevail. Whether that's 5 years or 15 years I don't know

 

[mal7887]

I thought the new Hydra lights are Bluetooth only just for now. That WiFi would be enabled in the future?

That's what I have heard. I actually have 4 Hydra 64 fixtures but currently they can only be controlled via Bluetooth.

 

[jschultzbass]

I guess I don't think it's a big deal. I have multiple systems on my tanks. I run an app for the Apex, Hydros Wave Engine, GHL dosing and KHD, Orphek lights. Doesn't really bother me.

 

[TheHarold]

Both parties are to blame, not solely ETM.

If ETM is refusing to work with Neptune to keep their products compatible (due to developing a competing controller of their own), I do not see how blame is attributed to Neptune.

Ecotech has done that since Vectra- then the G5 radions, etc.

 

[ca1ore]

Not to try and hijack a thread, maybe I missed it, but for those of us that are running multiple Ecotech products through Apex with the WXM, will this affect the usability going forward? As in updates to the WXM modules themselves or even the Ecotech products will the compatibility be taken away and forced us to use one or another platform?

Those are really good questions. As far as I understand it, newly bought vortech and Vectra pumps can be 'turned back' to remain WXM/Reeflink compatible. Radion Gen5 and versa are only mobius. I would guess that as next generation versions of the pumps come out, backwards compatibility will disappear, but that is just a guess. Whether there will be any further firmware updates to WSM seems unlikely, but that would be a question for Neptune.

 

[mal7887]

.......and this desire for access and manipulation is really a very small part of an already very small market

That's a great point!

 

[Albertan22]

That's the beauty of ETM products, you don't have to have a controller to use them. They are ready to go out of the box. As pointed out by JoshH, Neptune requires a controller. I'd venture to say that more hobbyist are running their tanks without a controller of any kind and wouldn't mind a free Mobius app to control their already running gear.

You're assuming that they're running an ETM ecosystem of equipment though. I myself run an Aquatic Life Hybrid with 3 Kessil A360X's, a couple MP40's, and a mishmash of various gear. It's a pain to have to go into both Apex Fusion and the Kessil App when I want to turn out my lights. I bought those lights on the promise that they'd be controllable with the wifi dongle through Apex's iota technology but that too hasn't materialized. If I had to add Mobius into the mix to set feed mode that would be too much, I'd go for an Apex controllable powerhead. If I was interested in moving to Radions then maybe I'd do it, but I'm not, so I just don't see a reason to add another app into my aquarium control.

As far as milking your VorTechs, there's no need because the new ones are backwards compatible to WXM.

Reports I have read are that you need to downgrade the firmware of the new Vortech's to get them to work with a WXM and that many who have tried have ended up bricking their Vortech.

I get the purpose of discontinuing WXM, Neptune is drawing a line in the sand, it forces hobbyist to choose a side, and they're betting that more users will flock to Apex and abandon ETM. It's a bold move and will be very interesting to see where the chips fall. I think WXM is (and always has been) a pathway to Apex by those who starting out with ETM products, taking that away isn't a smart decision.

What's interesting is they are painting themselves in a corner by holding onto their current customers, and making it harder for new customers even want an Apex. When given the option to purchase equipment that needs a controller to run vs just purchasing equipment capable of working straight out of the box. The choice should be obvious.

I personally have a robust Apex system and use Mobius to control all my ETM equipment. I don't see a reason to have a WXM anymore. I personally think that both platforms compliment each other rather well. But if I was new to the hobby, I don't think I would even consider an Apex.

I don't really know that abandoning the WXM is about Neptune trying to position market share. ETM has made it so that the WXM doesn't work with any of their new products (Vectra, Radion G5, and now the Vortech's). The WXM has only ever really worked with ETM equipment, and it probably doesn't make much sense for them to keep producing a module that will only work with old used equipment. Eventually all the compatible ETM equipment will exit the marketplace as they wear out and are replaced by the new equipment.

I also think that you are short changing Neptune. Price is certainly a huge barrier to getting into an Apex and keeps many people away. You said that you have a robust Apex ecosystem, so you probably haven't had to deal with the pain of having an aquarium control subfolder full of 3-6 apps to run your aquarium equipment. Having one app to rule them all still has it's appeal. Also don't underestimate the shinny combination of a Trident and DOS to self manage your alkalinity and calcium dosing. That appeals to many. If Neptune is smart at all they'd cut the price of the trident to 1/3 of it's current selling price and they'd probably sell 5x more complete Apex systems than they currently are. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this happen once they're able to keep up with production demand.

 

[ca1ore]

I don't really know that abandoning the WXM is about Neptune trying to position market share.

Discontinuing WXM may be much simpler … and vast (insert favored term here)-wing conspiracies unnecessary LOL. Perhaps the majority of folks who would buy WXM already have it and it doesn't sell enough to be worth the carrying cost of the SKU.

 

[chadg]

It is really frustrating that all the manufacturers don't make some attempt to allow connectivity. I love my Apex, but have always thought Neptune was too closed and still are. I don't mind having multiple systems either. Group a bunch of apps on my phone and that is fine. But, I don't want to have to press three different buttons to trigger a feed mode. That is where it falls down. I'd actually rather have the native app for my lights, but the Apex needs to be able to shut it off if it has a temp alert. OK, I can pull the power, but that is so 90's.....

I love the REST idea and wish it would be done more. What if I want to build my own app? REST interfaces would make that easy.... Anyway, seems like they think the money is in closed systems, it's not. Look at Microsoft. They struggled for years protecting their closed systems. Once they embraced open source, people are flocking back. Closed systems work in the short run, but not the long term. "Why can't we all just get along".....

 

[vangvace]

Not to try and hijack a thread, maybe I missed it, but for those of us that are running multiple Ecotech products through Apex with the WXM, will this affect the usability going forward? As in updates to the WXM modules themselves or even the Ecotech products will the compatibility be taken away and forced us to use one or another platform?

As long as you can roll back the Ecotech product you should be good to go. I wouldn't expect WXM modules to be bricked, but also not replaced as warranty expires. Depending on importance, it might be really good to have a spare.

If ETM is refusing to work with Neptune to keep their products compatible (due to developing a competing controller of their own), I do not see how blame is attributed to Neptune.

Ecotech has done that since Vectra- then the G5 radions, etc.

Hard to say. ETM might have wanted a licencing fee increase and Terrance reminded them that he used to ride the streetcar for a nickel and didn't want to pay fee increase. Neptune pumps might be the finger to increased licencing fees.

 

[mal7887]

I don't want to have to press three different buttons to trigger a feed mode. That is where it falls down.

That's exactly my thought. I don't want to have multiple apps.
ETM, Give me the option for both (your Mobius ecosystem or the option to use others)! I will continue to buy your products and be a happy customer! I have three Mp40's in use on my tank today!

 

[rioreef]

Just checking out the Mobius app and I was a button click away from doing the Mobius update for my MP40. Glad I stopped and found out that it would make it unusable with my WMX module. Why would I dump my integrated controls of my mp40s via APEX programming and all the options that it provides for an app that only works via bluetooth and not accessible via the internet. Mobius app description says this " A decade to develop, but seconds to set up." A decade to develop and they are only bluetooth?

 

[TheHarold]

Just checking out the Mobius app and I was a button click away from doing the Mobius update for my MP40. Glad I stopped and found out that it would make it unusable with my WMX module. Why would I dump my integrated controls of my mp40s via APEX programming and all the options that it provides for an app that only works via bluetooth and not accessible via the internet. Mobius app description says this " A decade to develop, but seconds to set up." A decade to develop and they are only bluetooth?

Exactly. Currently I have a physical button on my stand connected to the apex, which uses the WXM module to start feed modes, water change modes, custom photo and actinic light modes on my G4 radions, etc. They really distanced themselves from us thousands and thousands of apex users that want the compatibility. Or GHL users!

I suppose its just their version of a "bet" that hobbyists will buy the upcoming Ecotech controller just for the ability to integrate the other Ecotech hardware. Make it a fully closed system, so people cant enjoy integrating products from other competing manufacturers... Stinks.

 

[salty150]

Maybe it's time to say "A pox on both your houses." - and look elsewhere.

There are other good lighting, pump, wave, etc. makers out there.

 

[Kyl]

If ETM is refusing to work with Neptune to keep their products compatible (due to developing a competing controller of their own), I do not see how blame is attributed to Neptune.

Ecotech has done that since Vectra- then the G5 radions, etc.

In the past, ETM has published that the problem (with vectra support) laid with NS, while NS points the finger at ETM. Now either you believe one side, the other, or somewhere in the middle.

They're both companies that I won't willingly financially support, as such I don't have a financial stake or income interest in either camp, nor ultimately care who's "really at fault". I will note and draw attention to the fact that if the relationship was so toxic from one side only as some espouse, why would ETM have spent any resources bringing AI support via IOTa for a generation of fixtures through 2018 / 2019? The vectra squabble predated that release, so how's that square with the big bad wolf?

 

[mal7887]

In the past, ETM has published that the problem (with vectra support) laid with NS, while NS points the finger at ETM. Now either you believe one side, the other, or somewhere in the middle.

They're both companies that I won't willingly financially support, as such I don't have a financial stake or income interest in either camp, nor ultimately care who's "really at fault". I will note and draw attention to the fact that if the relationship was so toxic from one side only as some espouse, why would ETM have spent any resources bringing AI support via IOTa for a generation of fixtures through 2018 / 2019? The vectra squabble predated that release, so how's that square with the big bad wolf?

I'm with you there. I don't care who is at fault, I just wish they could both come to an understanding and work it out. It's better for both and for customers. I was under the impression that AI has the same parent company C2, but they are basically still run as separate companies. I'm not 100% sure on that.

 

[Kyl]

I'm with you there. I don't care who is at fault, I just wish they could both come to an understanding and work it out. It's better for both and for customers. I was under the impression that AI has the same parent company C2, but they are basically still run as separate companies. I'm not 100% sure on that.

Two sides of the same slice of bread.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Exactly. Currently I have a physical button on my stand connected to the apex, which uses the WXM module to start feed modes, water change modes, custom photo and actinic light modes on my G4 radions, etc.

6 of one half dozen of the other. I do the exact same thing except use Mobius instead of physical buttons connected to a break out box. I can select a feed scene through mobius and all the associated etm equipment goes into feed mode and as the water level rises in the sump apex detects and shuts off other equipment connected to an eb832.

I dont have to open multiple apps, just mobius. People just need to be creative is all.

When I was using WXM modules, I had tons of problems. I think it was due to the amount of pumps and lights I had connected to them (8 VorTechs, and 10 radions). Almost a weekly bases apex would drop a pump or light, which made it a headache to figure out how to get that device recognized again. And it wasnt the same thing every time, sometimes I could simply power cycle the wxm other times I had to remove every etm device and reload and program them, that proved to take hours out of my day every week. It was a God send to have mobius seamlessly control all my etm equipment.

Eventually, when Mobius unlocks wifi and it has its own power bar and probes, it will be interesting to see the direction consumers go.

 

[Bryn]

I say we should leave it to Alexa. I should be able to tell Alexa to turn pumps on and off, ask about parameters, give me alerts and updates. As a Realtor I have Kelly, similar to Alexa, which gives me a lot of information about the market in my area, as well as populating my Database with clients information, sending emails and a lot of other things, via an app, all voice activated.

My point is that I see the world moving away from individual modules, companies, I just want a central point of connection, and they all work. Makes me feel like we are back in the 90's with PC's and Apple's, OEM, propriety equipment.