Yellow tangs small tanks

[WVNed]

I don't think the tang police will think it's big enough.

It's not a tang. Who cares.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Tank size and longevity are not really signs of happiness. Some of the oldest living goldfish have been kept in bowls. Im not going to look up particular examples but these fish easily live to their 50’s.

I can tell you there is a definite behavioral difference between that bowl fish and a goldfish in a pond. My pond fish identity me vs. other humans. I can hand feed, someone else can not. They also spawn every year. Goldfish in a bowl barely even move, or acknowledge any going ons outside their glass.

I have no scientific studies to link, but i am sure there is a environment size that the behavior of a fish changes.

 

[MnFish1]

And have you found anything on big fish in small tanks?

Its pretty clear - that there is no evidence on either side - just opinion. But fish are kept in overcrowded conditions throughout the world - but some some reason people have a thing about 'tangs'. People eat tangs. People seem to kill corals right and left (judging by the number of people buying frags all the time. I personally don't have any major problem with the 'moral outrage' and somewhat sarcastic replies - but I do think its 'odd'. But when people start comparing fish to people - or fish to how children are kept - to me its insane.

 

[ThePurple12]

But when people start comparing fish to people - or fish to how children are kept - to me its insane.

Fish should be treated well, like children. Just because they aren't people doesn't mean they aren't capable of feelings/intelligence. I've seen videos of people petting their fish, and the fish are eager to be pet.

 

[MnFish1]

One of the points of the thread was if there were any studies. No one can point to one. You wrote that scientist don't have time for hobby stuff but if you look at the type of stuff grants are issued for you'd see that isn't true.

There are studies out there - most suggest that its not tank size that affects fish health and growth - as much as it is hormones and other chemicals that affect growth. Now - Its not necessarily positive - that fish do not grow to their 'proper' size in a tank - but it relates much more to water quality feeding, etc.

Its also 'out there' - that the maximum size of 'animals' in general - especially marine animals (sharks, squid, fish, etc) is often exaggerated. An analogy would be that just because some basketball players can be 7' or greater 'tall' does not mean that if someone is 5'7 that he/she is stunted or 'unhealthy'.


You can google it just as easy as I did.

 

[MnFish1]

Fish should be treated well, like children. Just because they aren't people doesn't mean they aren't capable of feelings/intelligence. I've seen videos of people petting their fish, and the fish are eager to be pet.

Where do you draw the line? - I mean personally - I'm well aware that there are also religions in which its considered improper to kill an insect. etc etc. There are a lot of beliefs - none of which I think are 'wrong' per se - but it does come down to opinion. There are so many examples in this world of animals kept conditions that some find deplorable. Again - im not siding with either side. Just mentioning that in the big scheme of things - and the number of things that can affect life and death in our tanks - I think this is a small issue.

Should minnows, for example - be used for bait fish? They also come to the top of the tank when food is dropped in? Should feeder goldfish be used? (My koi come to me each time I feed them). etc etc. I think many people ascribe 'desire for food' with 'emotions'. But - I will stand with my comment that there is a difference between using a child - and a fish as a comparison. Just like to most there is a difference comparing a clam (some here love to feed live clams) with a fish - right?

 

[S2G]

Bottom line, do we know that a fishis "happier" in a six foot tank that a two foot. Assuming they appear health in both.

Yes no doubt about that. Im not writing a 100pg study on it though.

Now using tangs specifically. I currently have a scopas about the size of your palm. I had it in an observation 40b for 2m's. It was so scared to the point I would be afraid it would jump out. It was hard to get it to eat unless you walked off and would barely graze. Now released into a 180 it's a totally different fish. It's front and center when your looking at point blank range, eats like a horse, and grazes all day.

Now is a 180 the min for a scopas this size I don't know. I can tell you a 40b isn't a good size for one even though it had room to move. A 4" clown was a nightmare in a 40b attacking anything put with it including my fingers. Forward to 180 model citizen. Those were both signs of stress they were showing. Stress = unhappy.

 

[jrill]

Fish should be treated well, like children. Just because they aren't people doesn't mean they aren't capable of feelings/intelligence. I've seen videos of people petting their fish, and the fish are eager to be pet.

There not the same. Had a great fish lunch just yesterday. I think you hit on part of the problem though. Many people think of fish as people. Many time there just food.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes no doubt about that. Im not writing a 100pg study on it though.

Now using tangs specifically. I currently have a scopas about the size of your palm. I had it in an observation 40b for 2m's. It was so scared to the point I would be afraid it would jump out. It was hard to get it to eat unless you walked off and would barely graze. Now released into a 180 it's a totally different fish. It's front and center when your looking at point blank range, eats like a horse, and grazes all day.

Now is a 180 the min for a scopas this size I don't know. I can tell you a 40b isn't a good size for one even though it had room to move. A 4" clown was a nightmare in a 40b attacking anything put with it including my fingers. Forward to 180 model citizen. Those were both signs of stress they were showing. Stress = unhappy.

Curious - was that tank - just a QT tank with a PVC pipe? DO you think it would have done as well in a 55 gallon with live rock as it does in the 180? etc etc - again - this is not to disagree with you - I'm sure it did great in the 180. as compared to a square glass box. Were the sides of the tank blackened except for the front, etc etc. I mean - I see tangs in LFS all the time - and they are not acting 'poorly'. Again - no disagreement with what you say - except you dont know if it was 'water quality', or 'what was causing the stress'. My guess is that the hiding places, water quality, and numerous other things in the larger tank (independent of size) - were present in the 180 - but who knows

 

[DSC reef]

One of the points of the thread was if there were any studies. No one can point to one. You wrote that scientist don't have time for hobby stuff but if you look at the type of stuff grants are issued for you'd see that isn't true.

That's the issue when threads like this are made. Your question was clear as day yet the soap boxes and judgemental people come out as soon as "tang" and a small tank are mentioned.

 

[S2G]

Curious - was that tank - just a QT tank with a PVC pipe? DO you think it would have done as well in a 55 gallon with live rock as it does in the 180? etc etc - again - this is not to disagree with you - I'm sure it did great in the 180. as compared to a square glass box. Were the sides of the tank blackened except for the front, etc etc. I mean - I see tangs in LFS all the time - and they are not acting 'poorly'. Again - no disagreement with what you say - except you dont know if it was 'water quality', or 'what was causing the stress'. My guess is that the hiding places, water quality, and numerous other things in the larger tank (independent of size) - were present in the 180 - but who knows

I do know though. It was an observation tank setup just like my display with exactly the same parameters so I can just transfer once ready. Every inhabitant goes through this process. The rock and sand is actually more mature in the observation tanks.

I have no clue about the 55. The tang, percula clown, & dottyback were the worse. The small emporer was a little twitchy, but not bad. All 4 behaviour totally relaxed when moved to a larger setup even though they had room to move. The bigger foxface, damsels, etc didn't sweat it and acted the same regardless even though the foxface was the most cramped.

 

[Paul B]

Should minnows, for example - be used for bait fish? They also come to the top of the tank when food is dropped in? Should feeder goldfish be used?

I just fed my tank live worms, mysis, clams etc. I really don't feel bad for those creatures. I am sure when I just walked to the mailbox, I stepped on some ants, in the summer I will kill some mosquitoes. I eat fish almost every day and yesterday had some of the best grouper I have ever had, and it was stuffed with shrimp, scallops and crab.

Delicious. People that feel really bad about fish dying should get another hobby, especially if all your fish are not dying of old age as mine are.

Do mysis have less rights than your dog? Why?

If your fish die from things such as disease, you are killing them and that is your fault.

Jesus ate a lot of fish and I never saw Michelangelo paint a picture of any of them getting last rites.

Just my sea food breath talking.

 

[ThePurple12]

There not the same. Had a great fish lunch just yesterday. I think you hit on part of the problem though. Many people think of fish as people. Many time there just food.

I meant that fish should be taken care of as best as possible in our aquariums.

 

[jrill]

I meant that fish should be taken care of as best as possible in our aquariums.

That, I agree with.
I hate when people compare pets with children. I've seen kids who were beaten, abused, locked in closets and have had unspeakable things done to them by family members. Pets are not the same as children.

 

[DSC reef]

I meant that fish should be taken care of as best as possible in our aquariums.

I fully agree with you. I've mentioned in other threads as well, if you saw my purple tang in our 75 reef tank you would be pleased to see how healthy, fat and colorful he was. Very well taken care of. Now he resides in a 200 gallon, the only tang and he looks horrible. My point is a bigger tank does not mean you care or the fish is taken care of properly. No disease either in the 75. If we all could afford thousands of gallons for a tank we would, I don't agree with others making it seem like someone doesn't care for their fish because they have them in a tank another person deems too small. I absolutely cared and loved that fish as with all the others that were kept in many years.

 

[MnFish1]

I meant that fish should be taken care of as best as possible in our aquariums.

Everyone agrees with this - the problem is - that there is a bit of hypocrisy in this topic (IMO). If you mean as best as possible for that individual - (i.e a person with a 4 foot tank making sure parameters, feeding, etc is excellent) - I agree with you. If you mean everyone needs to have a 1000 gallon tank to keep a tang - I disagree. You have to realize that there are some people that pretend to 'know' which sized tank is 'best as possible' for a tang. Those that say a 5 foot tank is inadequate - have no reason to say so - except that they have a 6 foot tank (which of course is 'ok'.)

 

[Paul B]

The Long Island Sound is about 100 yards behind my house. When the tide goes out thousands of fish are caught in tide pools and die. The birds love it.

Should I stand there every 12 hours and throw each of those fish back into the sea?
I will if you say I should, but it will be kind a pain to do.

 

[spidercrab]

Where do you draw the line? - I mean personally - I'm well aware that there are also religions in which its considered improper to kill an insect. etc etc. There are a lot of beliefs - none of which I think are 'wrong' per se - but it does come down to opinion. There are so many examples in this world of animals kept conditions that some find deplorable. Again - im not siding with either side. Just mentioning that in the big scheme of things - and the number of things that can affect life and death in our tanks - I think this is a small issue.

Should minnows, for example - be used for bait fish? They also come to the top of the tank when food is dropped in? Should feeder goldfish be used? (My koi come to me each time I feed them). etc etc. I think many people ascribe 'desire for food' with 'emotions'. But - I will stand with my comment that there is a difference between using a child - and a fish as a comparison. Just like to most there is a difference comparing a clam (some here love to feed live clams) with a fish - right?

Some animals have captured the hearts of humans...(dogs, cats, bunnies, ..) The rest dont really matter..

 

[spidercrab]

The Long Island Sound is about 100 yards behind my house. When the tide goes out thousands of fish are caught in tide pools and die. The birds love it.

Should I stand there every 12 hours and throw each of those fish back into the sea?
I will if you say I should, but it will be kind a pain to do.

yes we should start a task force!!!! unnecessary violence going on there!

 

[MnFish1]

Some animals have captured the hearts of humans...(dogs, cats, bunnies, ..) The rest dont really matter..

And yet cats are routinely shot on farms. Dogs are eaten in some cultures - as are horses. Yet other cultures revere cattle, etc etc etc. Now - having said that - I dont think anything shoudl be 'tortured'. I.e. I never liked it when people took fish that were caught for eating - that were just put 'alive' in a creel or left on the beach. Yet thats routinely done. Everyone seems to have their own opinion based on their culture. People that 'pretend' to have the absolute answer - to me - are misguided. Ive used this example before - PETA - and several organizations believe that ALL aquariums - fresh, salt, reef, FOWLR are 'cruel'. This is where I place 'the tang police'. In the same logical area - its hypocritical in many cases.